DALLETT:

My name is Nancy Dallett, and I'm speaking with Harry Koroughlanian. And I'm at his home in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on Saturday morning, November 4, 1989 and we're about to begin the Interview Number 425 [DP-51] at about, what is it, 10:45. And we're going to talk about Mr. Koroughlanian's experience coming through Ellis Island from France in 1936 when he was seven years of age. Can we start back at the beginning of your story and can you tell me where and when you were born?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

I was born in France on June the 29th, 1929, where my parents came from Armenia, and they were refugees, during the 1920's. And after roaming around through Armenia and Syria, they finally were accepted in France. And that's where they settled in San Antoine, which is a small village or town outside of Marseilles.

DALLETT:

Did they, as you were growing up, did they tell you about that period when they were refugees from Armenia?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Oh, yes. They would speak about it quite often. And even though some of the things that they talked about were rather gruesome, nevertheless they would talk about it when people would come over to the house and reminisce about their lives back in Armenia during this period of time, in 1915 to 1920. But, uh, no, they lived in Armenia, which is part of Turkey now, near Adana, Turkey. And there were many, many Armenians living in Turkey. But it was taken over by the Turks and actually the two groups never got along because the Armenians were Christians, and the Turkish people, of course, belonged to a different religion. And my parents were farmers, doing agricultural work there, and very religious. Armenia, actually, became a Christian nation back in 301 A.D. It was the first nation to accept Christianity. And consequently the church was very important to the Armenian people. And this, of course, angered the Turks. And, uh, many of the people, the Armenian people, were quite well-educated. And they would do a lot of office work, the important works in the universities and so forth. And this, of course, also angered the Turks, because they had outsiders, so to speak, doing a lot of the important work. And back in 1915 Turkey was involved in World War One and, of course, communication wasn't so good. And the Armenian people had been a torn in their side for years, and they decided that they were going to get rid of the Armenians once and for all, and they did try to do something from 1915 until about 1920. And my parents, where they lived, on a farm, they were told to leave their homes within three days. And to take their possessions, whatever they could carry, and leave. And they were driven out towards the desert. That is, they had to walk. They had a wagon, and I don't know what farm animals, but many of the people were killed, whether shot, bayonetted, hanged. And in my parents case they were told to start walking toward the desert, toward Syria. And this was in the heat of summer, about July. And there were sixteen people between my father's side and my mother's side. And within three years, eleven out of the sixteen had passed away because of disease, hunger, thirst, the heat. And, uh, they just roamed around wherever they could find food and water. And there were some camps set up by the, uh, French and British Red Cross. There was some help there, where they were given clothing, medicine, food. And finally after roaming around they were accepted in France, and there were only five, five out of the sixteen, left. And within a short period of time, another member of the family passed away in France, so there were only four. My father, my mother, my grandfather and my father's brother. Now, he went to Argentina. He ended up in Argentina in Buenos Aires. And my parents were in France. Now, during this period of time, I'd like to say that some of the Arabs were quite kind to them. They did give them some food and water and so forth. But they just roamed around, and it was very difficult. And during this period, about a million and a half Armenians were either massacred or they died of starvation, disease. And many of them, and even to this day Turkey denies that there were so many people involved in this, but we do know that it's a million and a half to perhaps two million people that were, that died during this period of time, from 1915 to 1920. And, uh, people just, the fortunate ones, like my parents, that did survive, they just went to any country that would accept them. So--

DALLETT:

Did they ever explain to you the circumstances by which they were in some sense spared and were given, at least, the opportunity to leave their land?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Well, it depended on what part of Armenia. They were quite cruel in certain parts, where they would shoot people. The soldiers were very cruel to the people. And the intellects, of course they got to the intellects, whether they were teachers, scientists, professors. Many of them didn't have a chance. They were often shot or hanged. They were hoping that people like my own parents would not survive the heat of the desert, and many of them did not. And there were, it was just a miracle that they, four, well, let's say five out of the sixteen did survive. But, again, they roamed around for about three years in the desert area there, which would be part of Turkey, which was formerly Armenia, and into Syria, right at the, that would the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. Now, uh--

DALLETT:

Was it anything to do with the kind of land that they were on? Were they on rich land? You said they were farmers.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Uh, they were, well, first of all, Armenia is in a strategic location. It's a crossroads from east to west, north to south, and it has been for centuries. Even the Alexander the Great going way back. You had invaders coming through, and they had been conquered, and re-conquered by different tribes, different groups of people. But, again, it was part of the Ottoman Empire when Turkey took over. Naturally many of the people were Armenians. But there again, even to this day, as I said before, they deny the fact that so many people had been killed or died. But, uh, it left an awful lot of tragic memories for these people, and many of them, well, let me, were there any questions on France?

DALLETT:

Yes. That was where you were born.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. Do you want me to continue?

DALLETT:

How many years after they settled in France did they--

KOROUGHLANIAN:

They came in the early '20's. Now, they also lost two children when they were roaming around, infants. They died of starvation, malnutrition. Even though they were able to stay alive by eating whatever types of foods, it was no food for small babies. Do they also lost, so I was the third child in the family and after they came to France I was born there in 1929 and shortly thereafter my father left to come to the United States. There wasn't enough money for the three of us, or four of us, to come.

DALLETT:

Were they granted, like, a temporary refugee status in France, or could they have stayed on in France?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

They could have stayed, and I'm sure that they could have stayed if they had wanted to make it their permanent residence. But my, there were some relatives here in America in Racine, Racine, Wisconsin. People that they knew that had come before. And they were, he was able to get some money for passage for himself. So he left for America in 1930 or so, shortly after I was born, and he came here to find work. And actually it was a bad time because the Depression. And he did find work in Racine. He did work in Kenosha, Sheboygan, Wisconsin with the Kohler Company.

DALLETT:

Which company?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Kohler. They make sinks. And after six or seven years he was able to send for us. Now, while we were living in France my conditions were very, very poor there. We lived in a one-room house. When I say house, it wasn't, the room was about as big as this living room, which would be about twenty feet by fourteen. One window, a little fireplace in the corner used for cooking, not for heating. No furniture to speak of. We slept on the floor, we ate on the floor. In the morning when we would get up, we would put the bedding along the walls. Very cold in the winter. It has a Mediterranean climate there in Marseilles. Quite cold in the winter and very hot in the summer. And during this period my father would send some money. Later on I learned that it was like ten dollars every two months that we were living on. And my mother, she would find part-time work in Marseilles. There was a little bit of canning. And we would help with the grape harvests, because France is a wine country. They produce an awful lot of wine. But after my father was able to save enough money, he sent for us, in 1936. And my mother and I came. My grandmother stayed behind. There wasn't enough money for her. She came two years later in 1938.

DALLETT:

Now, when did your, let's see, it was your father's brother, your uncle. When did he leave for Argentina? From France, this was?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. I'm sure that he made it. I'm not sure. I'm sure that he went to France and then they found out that Argentina was taking in refugees. And I was, somehow, for some reason, I don't know why Argentina. Cuba, a number of them ended up in Cuba. I'm not sure about Canada. There were some European countries where they were able to live. They were accepted.

DALLETT:

Did you know, do you know if your father and mother considered Argentina for them, or was it because they had relatives here in Racine?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

I really don't know. But, uh, as I said, my parents did have some relatives here in America. And they were able to get financial help.

DALLETT:

Do you remember actually leaving France, then?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes, yes I do. We were, as I very attached to my grandmother. She more or less raised me, because my mother would be gone at times. But when it was time for us to come to America--

DALLETT:

Ooh, the cat's biting me. Hold on. (Break in tape.) Uh, I'm sorry about that. You were talking about being so attached to your grandmother.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. I didn't realize that she was going to stay behind because there wasn't enough money for passage. And I can still remember going to the train station, and she came with us. She entered the train, and walked out the other end, and because she knew, they knew that I'd cry, having her stay behind. But we did come. We did, we left at Le Harve, which is a port on the English Channel, in June of 1936 on a ship called Champlain. I don't know what country owned it, but it sounds French. And we came to New York, June the 19th of 1936. And I can still remember the commotion being made by people when they saw the Statue of Liberty. And, of course, I didn't understand all of this. I was too young. But I can still remember going from the ship on a launch, some type of a boat. Going with my mother to Ellis Island for the examination. And, of course, I was just a short person, and I can still remember all these legs. I was very close to the floor. And, uh, we were in line it seemed like an awful long time. But we were waiting on line to be examined by doctors. I don't know if there were any nurses or not. But the thing that I remember, and my mother talked about this later on, was the eye examination. They were so strict. Any, for some reason, if anybody had weak eyes, or a disease of the eyes, they would often be sent back to the country that they came from. And it was a big commotion. All I can remember are the crowds. And shortly thereafter somehow we got on the train to Chicago. And my father met us there at the train station along with some friends. They had driven down to Chicago to meet us and that was the first time I had ever seen him, remember seeing him. And my mother, of course, they were separated during that time. And the thing that I remember, the ride from Chicago to Racine, which is about sixty miles, he bought me a bag of Hershey Kisses, and I ate the candy all the way to Racine. But, uh, and aboard the ship I, we, the food that we had in France was very basic things. We would, bread, beans, potatoes and cheese, I can remember. We seldom had meat. And it was, we just didn't have it. And here, for the first time in our lives aboard ship. we saw all this wonderful food. I can remember bowls of fruit, oranges, apples, and so on, but we were to sick to eat it. We were seasick. We stayed in our little room that we had. We had bunk beds, as I recall. And we were sick the entire time. Once in a while we'd go above on deck to get fresh air, but often the steward would bring the food to our little room. Soups, nothing heavy, no rich foods, because we'd throw up. But these are a few things that I remember coming. It took about a week, as I recall, to get from Le Harve to New York. And, uh, the excitement and so forth. But all this, we were very, very frightened, because my mother, you know, she didn't speak the language. She spoke Armenian and a little bit of French, but coming to America with trying to find directions, or trying to get to the railroad station, or a hotel, wherever we stayed was quite hard. And we were very fearful about everything until we got to Racine.

DALLETT:

Do you remember whether there were any translators to help he at Ellis Island?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

No, not that I recall. I do remember people helping at the train station, Traveller's Aid. Traveller's Aid, I think, helped, helped us get onto the right train. But once we got to Chicago my father, and of course, they were just kind of roaming around looking for us. And they knew what train probably that we coming in. So that was not a problem. But the entire trip, to me, I can still remember some of the things. Some of the things that I've told you, of course, I heard from my mother later on when I was older. But I can still picture the trip aboard the ship. The Statue of Liberty, I can't remember if I saw it or not. But Ellis Island I, that is quite vivid in my mind. And coming to the train station, one of the train stations in Chicago. I think there are two. And then the trip from Chicago to Racine in a car.

DALLETT:

Back at Ellis Island, you mentioned that, you gave this impression that there was a lot of commotion, and you were sort of looking up at that. Anything else you can remember, what impressed you, you know, the size of the building, or any people there?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

I really can't say. There were an awful lot of people. This was, 1936, this was prior to World War Two. I don't know if there was any talk of war in Europe at that time. I'm sure there must have been, with Hitler being in power. And the war started in 1939, which was just three years after we got here. But I just wonder if there were an unusual number of people trying to get out of Europe at that time, trying to get to America. But I can still remember the suitcases. When I look at some of the pictures, men, the custom was having a moustache, I think. That was quite common. And all, I do remember all the different languages being spoken. It wasn't just from France, but I'm sure all the European countries that had people coming here.

DALLETT:

Do you remember some of the things that you brought and I'd love you to mention those. (Referring to a pair of socks he wanted to donate to the national Park Service.)

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Well, these socks were given to me by my grandmother, who made them back in Armenia, I would say at least sixty, maybe, seventy years ago. And the wool, they grew, they raised sheep, and they would cut, shear the sheep and make it into yarn, of course, and she spun the yarn and knitted these socks.

DALLETT:

They have these lovely, wonderful colors, pink and purple and green and orange. Wonderful patterns. Did she continue to do this kind of thing when she came here?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. She was quite old. She passed away in 1964 and she was in her, I believe she was ninety-two or ninety-four. She was born about 1870, 1871, somewhere in there. And I can always remember her as being an elderly person. She was always old to me. And she came--

DALLETT:

She must have been very strong-- to survive--

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. She was a very strong person. She saw, she experienced a great deal of, there was a great deal of suffering that she had all her life. She had worked hard, and I'm sure this had something to do with her living to be a ripe old age, because she was very used to doing manual work, and you had to do manual work in order to survive. And she was a very strong person. And as I said before, she more or less raised me because my mother would sometimes be gone to work. And so I would be with her all the time. And we were very, we were attached to one another. She raised me. And she was very respected in Racine, in the church. I could never understand why people, I would always walk to church with her whenever she wanted to go, and we just lived about a half a mile from the church. And often times we would rest about half way because she was quite elderly. But after church, in the Armenian church, the sermon would often take two and sometimes three hours. And after church everybody would come up and talk to her and would kiss her hand. I still remember that. They would often kiss her hand. And I found out later, many years later, that she had saved the lives of a number of children. Often times, now, going back to what I said before in Armenia during this period when my parents were roaming around, my mother lost a sister. They became separated, and to this very day they never knew what happened to her. And the Turks often times would take young children into their homes as, maybe in harems, and especially if the children had no parents. And they would be just roaming around. And my grandmother, I heard this later on, that she saved the lives of about fifteen or seventeen children. She took them in and made sure that the Turkish soldiers didn't get them. And some of these refugees were in Racine, the children. And as I said they would often come up and kiss her hand, and they had great respect for her.

DALLETT:

Take me back to that point where you were really meeting your father for the first time. What was that like?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

I didn't even feel that he was my father because there was no attachment. I would not call him father or da for years and years. It was only after I came out of the service, in my twenties, that I would call him dad or father. But he was a very strong disciplinarian. He had a, not that he mistreated me, but he was a very strong person. He was a very big man. He had a very hard life. He worked in a foundry for the J.I Case Farm Implement Company for a good many teats. So he was a very strong person, but we were never very close.

DALLETT:

Now was the grandmother that you were so close to his mother or your mother's mother?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. My grandmother's son. And, well, we had a very nice home life. Uh, we were very close. The church was very important to us. I grew up in Racine. I went into the first grade when I was seven years old and because I didn't know the language I failed the first year. I repeated first grade. And I was probably the oldest child in class. And I went through the Racine school system, and I graduated from high school when I was almost twenty years old.

DALLETT:

Um, I'm going to just flip over the tape now, so we'll pause. That's the end of side one of Interview Number425 [DP-51], with Harry Koroughlanian. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

DALLETT:

This is the beginning of side two of Interview Number 425 [DP-51] with Harry Koroughlanian. Tell me about the community. You were just talking about growing up in Racine, and going into first grade. Were there other Armenian kids that you went to school with?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. We lived in a community where there were a lot of Armenians. The, at that time most Armenians would live quite close to church. I would say, within the radius of two miles or so. And many of the, of course, we attended Sunday school and church and most of my playmates were Armenians. We didn't have any other group in the church. They were all Armenians. But as I grew up I also, we lived in a neighborhood where there were a great deal of Italians, and many of them had come from the old country and so consequently we had both Armenians and many Italians as friends. But I enjoyed my years in Racine.

DALLETT:

Do you remember what it was like in those first few tears when you were probably getting used to so many new things.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Well, everything was new. One of things I remember, when we first came here, I was hesitant about sitting in chairs. Furniture really threw me, because we were used to sitting on the floor all the time. We ate on the floor, as Is aid before, and we slept on the floor. We had a table, which would be similar to what you would find probably in a Japanese restaurant where you cross your legs. But we didn't have any type of furniture as you see here. And, uh, I can still remember the first, when we first came here. Of course, we stayed in a hotel in Le Harve. I don't remember, it had to be a bed there, and there were bunk beds aboard ship. But when we came to Racine I didn't want to sleep in a bed because I was afraid of falling out. And I wanted to sleep on the floor next to the bed. But we lived upstairs of some relatives. They were not close relatives but my father had been staying with them. He had a room there, and after we came we rented the upstairs flat from them and we stayed there from 1936 to 1938 when my father purchased a home in, on Prospect Street there. And again we were very close to the church. And the years of growing up in Racine, I had very pleasant memories, very nice experiences. My parents were very kind, and I had one brother who was born here after we got here. He was born in 1938.

DALLETT:

Was your father, did he pick up the language?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

No, not at all. Since he lived among the Armenians, they all spoke Armenian. But he was able to pick up enough English to pass the test for his citizenship. And he became a citizen in the early '30's, I would say, before we came to America. And later on, my mother became a citizen about 1943, which would be about seven or eight years after we got here. But in both cases they did not speak English fluently. Broken English. Just enough to get by to go shopping. And the reason, I would say, is because they always spoke Armenian at home and they were in the Armenian community where everybody spoke Armenian. But it was very hard for me to pick up the language. I would say that after a year or two, you know, you're always playing with kids that were speaking the language, English language, and you pick it up very quickly. It's very easy for a younger person to learn a new language. In fact, today, now, the only one surviving out of those sixteen that I mentioned earlier, is my mother. She's eighty-nine years old, living in a nursing home in Racine. She can't hear very well, she can't walk, poor vision. And very poor health, but she's the only one that's living, among those sixteen that started out in Armenia where they were roaming around. All the rest have passed away. My father passed away in 1984, about five years ago, my grandmother about twenty-five years ago. So she's the last one. And my brother, as I mentioned, he was born here in 1938. So I'm about nine years older than he is. And he continues to see my mother daily. He has a barber shop in Racine, which isn't too far from the nursing home. So every night when he closes the shop he goes over to the nursing home and stays for about ten, twenty minutes or so, and then goes home. But, uh--

DALLETT:

It sounds like he must have grown up almost in a different world.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes, because he was born here, and he didn't know anything about the hardships of what we went through. My life wasn't as hard as my parents, of course. But as I said, uh, we didn't have any of the foods that people eat here. It was just basic foods. And I think we were, you might say, on welfare. Not all year long, but it seems like during the summer in France, uh, my mother would go in, they would give her these long loaves of bread, French bread. She'd bring that home. And then dry beans, potatoes. Nothing perishable. And that, plus what my father would send. So it was a very difficult life living there in France. And coming here it was, well, I was spoiled, you might say. My father would give me all these pennies. He'd throw them in a dresser drawer, and he'd say, "Whenever you want to buy candy, just help yourself." Which was the wrong thing to do, because I would often take a handful of pennies. And back in the '30's you could, well, get, say,five pieces of candy for a penny. And I would often take some of my friends with me, and we'd walk out of the store with bags and bags of candy. It didn't do anything good for my teeth, though. But, and another thing is my father wasn't working. This was the '30's. He had lost his job. So from about 1936 to 1939, when World War Two began in Europe, he was finally called back to work. But we were living much better here than we did in France. We ate much better, more meat. And as I said before, it was easy for me to learn the language, because I was going to school, and my playmates all spoke English. And actually I have forgotten a great deal of Armenian. It's very hard for me to talk to my mother now when I go and visit her. I can't speak to her in complete sentences. I have forgotten too much, because I don't use the language. And, you know, I'll go down tomorrow. I go down every two weeks to see her, and sometimes she'll be asleep and I won't bother her and I'll stay for ten minutes and I'll walk out. If she's awake, I'll stay for maybe twenty minutes, forty-five minutes. Because she has a difficult time hearing, and it's hard to carry on a conversation with her now.

DALLETT:

I'm interested in that whole question of how the culture gets carried and how it moves from generation to generation. And how, for instance, in your family, having just met your daughter, the connection that she feels to her grandparents.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Well, I don't think there is much connection, because my wife is not Armenian, and we don't speak the Armenian language here. In fact, there are many things I have never told my children. I'm telling you more than they know. (He laughs.) Once in a while it might come up in a conversation, you know, that I had this experience or that experience when I was younger, but we're a typical American family, I'd say. And I don't have that much of a connection with the Armenian community in Racine. Many of my friends are still living there, but I don't go to an Armenian church. I'm Presbyterian. I don't use the language very often. The culture, we don't experience it because we're not associating ourselves with the Armenian community. But it's a very rich culture, and there are many people in Racine, people that I grew up with, that have married Armenians. And they go to an Armenian church and they experience, or practice, the culture, whereas I'm quite removed from it, and I have forgotten a great deal. But once in a while I go to Racine and we go to the church picnic and we get together and reminisce about some old times, good times that we had during our younger years. But I've lived in Milwaukee now for thirty years. And I went to school, I went to college in Stevens Point, Wisconsin. I met my wife in Racine. She was a teacher there. And I got a job here in Milwaukee. I've been with the Milwaukee Public Schools for almost thirty-four years. So we've, I've lived here in Milwaukee most of my life. And in my past, once in a while, I think about it, but sometimes I have to remind myself that I born in another country, or I had these experiences, or those experiences. And I'll often forget about it. And once in a while I'll say, oh, yeah, that. Or sometimes I work with people, and I don't talk about it. And once in a while, you know, I'll say, "I'm an immigrant." (He laughs.) But, uh, generally I don't talk in detail because, actually, the experiences that we had were not very pleasant. And I was very young. There are many things O do remember, and many things that I don't remember. So, uh-- DALLETT; Do you think the experience shaped your values?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Oh, yes, definitely. I think our family life, we're very close, I would say, the children. We made sure that we, they had the care and the nice experience of growing up. And, uh, we have four children, two are at home, and two are gone. One is married. My son is married, living in Chicago. He's, he works for a television studio there. And my oldest daughter, she lives up the street here just one block. She's single. She's a chemist. he has a very good job. My next daughter, she's a, what is she? An environmental engineer? What's the title? Environmentalist, anyway. She works for waste management. She has quite a job. And my youngest, the one that you met, she's a certified public accountant. So we're quite proud that we were able to provide a good education for all of our children. I think our values are very high and there are many things that I don't understand about this country that are going wrong. I realize that the family life isn't what it used to be. You have a lot of separations and divorce and single parents and what have you, and I just don't understand that aspect of it, and the drug problem that where having, and the crime, and so forth. But I have a great deal of respect for the country. I don't want to sound like a super patriot, but I just love this country. I have so much respect for it, and what it's done for me and for my family. And I, we don't talk this country up enough. There are so many wonderful things about it that we just take for granted. And especially people that have been born here and have not been able to make a comparison with another culture, another country. And, uh, if people travel outside of the country and are able to compare our way of life with, say, with underdeveloped nations, we have a lot going for ourselves here. And the standard of living is so high. And my father had such great respect for it. He could never understand. He said when he came here the price of bread was something like a nickel. And I can still remember he and a friend of his talking way back in the '50's probably. The price of bread was, maybe, fifteen cents. It had gone up, say, it tripled in price. And yet his wages had maybe quadrupled, and he was making so much more, he couldn't understand why the price of bread didn't go up, because people were getting paid a great deal more. But he was quite a patriot, I would say, great respect. During World War Two he worked at the J.I. Case Company. And they were short of help. He would often work maybe two shifts, or work on Saturdays and Sundays. He felt that he was really doing something great for the country because we were at war. And, you know, they had a great deal of respect for the country. Even though they were not able to understand in detail a lot of the things that were going on. I would often have to explain to him what was going on, in the news, what I would read in the newspaper, or what we would hear on the radio. But he was very interested, and Roosevelt, I can still remember he had such respect, for President Roosevelt during the thirties and during World War Two. But I love this country and I'm sure that my own children, you know, they have nothing to compare with. They were born here, and we've tried to give them everything that they, we can possibly give them. A very comfortable home, and so forth, a good education. But, uh, again, they would have to travel out of the country so that they would have the same amount of respect, I would say, for the country, that I do.

DALLETT:

Did you ever see your uncle again, the one who went to Argentina?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes, yes. He and my father hadn't seen each other for thirty years, thirty-five years. Finally, in 1955, my father brought him over. He paid for his passage and he spent about two months, about two months in this country. And that was the first time he saw his brother, my father, and my grandmother, which would be his mother, after all those years. He didn't have a very good job in Argentina. He was working in a soda factory or something where they would bottle soda pop. And I think he was retired. (Voices off mike.)

MRS. KOROUGHLANIAN:

The first thing Harry's grandmother did when she saw her son for the first time, she bawled him out because he didn't wait to get a chance to come to the United States. You see they had to get a visa, and it was so hard to get visas. And, you know, it was by number. So many others were ahead and everything. And so he went to Argentina, and she was so angry it was unbelievable.

DALLETT:

After thirty years.

MRS. KOROUGHLANIAN:

Yes. Just unbelievable.

DALLETT:

How did his experience in Argentina, then, compare to the choices that your father had made?

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Well, uh, as I mentioned, he didn't have a very good job. He, bare existence. I wasn't too familiar with his background, his family, and we never kept in touch. My father would write to him. My father, even though he could not read and write English, he could read and write in Armenian, so he would keep in touch with his brother. And there were some other relatives that lived in Lebanon, in France. He would write to them. In the Soviet Union, Soviet Armenia. He would keep in touch with them. But, uh, since I can't read and wrote Armenian, we've lost contact with relatives.

DALLETT:

Okay. I think I've asked you everything I need to, unless there's anything else you want to add. I do want to thank you, especially on behalf of the Park Service, for this, giving these socks to the museum.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

Well, I hope you can make good use of it.

DALLETT:

I hope your daughter isn't angry at you that she doesn't get to keep them.

KOROUGHLANIAN:

No. I don't know. If you want, is there any specific, anything else that you--

DALLETT:

I think I've got what I need. Okay. That's the end of side two, and the end of Interview Number 425 [DP-51] with Harry Koroughlanian. Thank you. And the time is 11:45.