SEGRIST:

Good afternoon. This is Paul Segrist for the National Park Service. Today is Saturday, May 1 st , 1999. I'm in Sonoma, California, and I'm here with Gregory Bard. Dr. Bard is a man of Armenian background who came from Turkey to the United States in 1930. He was eighteen years old when he arrived in New York, and he was detained overnight at Ellis Island in 1930. I also want to say for the sake of the tape that there's a dishwasher going in the background, which will be picked up for a little while. And Dr. Bard's dog Hansie, a little dachshund, is running around, so you may hear Hansie also. Can we begin by you giving me your birth date, please?

BARD:

Yes. I was born on April 12 th , 1912, when, the day the Titanic sank!

SEGRIST:

And what was your name when you were born?

BARD:

Krikorik, K-R-I-K-O-R-I-K, Bardizbanian, B-A-R-D-I-Z-B-A-N-I-A-N.

SEGRIST:

And where were you born?

BARD:

I was born in Istanbul, Turkey, in an area near now called Taxim, T-A-X-I-M.

SEGRIST:

Can you explain what the area--?

BARD:

That's the European part of Istanbul. Istanbul is divided into two parts, divided by the Golden Horn, which is a water inlet. And the southern part is the old town, usually occupied by mostly Turks. This is in the old days. And the European part was called Pera, P-E-R-A, which was occupied by mostly Europeans that lived there after World War One. During World War One, Istanbul was occupied by the Allied forces, and at that time it was not Turkish; it was under Allied occupation. And most of the minorities, such as Armenians, Greeks, Jews, and also some of the European cultures: French, British, they lived in the area called Pera, where the, at that time, the Allied embassies also were situated. So that's where I was born.

SEGRIST:

Can you explain how your name became Gregory Bard?

BARD:

I, when I came to United States, I came directly to Stockton, California, where I registered at a small college called College of the Pacific. And when I came there, I realized that the — oops.

SEGRIST:

Okay. Hansie is taking your microphone off! Hang on, I'll put it back on. Hang on, Hansie. There you go. I'm going to throw this over here, actually. Okay, go ahead.

BARD:

I realized that the college was quite provincial in their appreciation of world cultures, and they had a very difficult time to spell and pronounce my name. so I thought the practical thing would be to Anglicize my name. And Krikorik is Gregory, so I took Gregory, and Bardizbanian became Bard. Now I must say that before I came to this country, my father had taken on the word Bardiz as well, because after the Allied occupation of Turkey, when Kemal Ataturk reformed Turkey, the people were asked to abandon their names, even Moslems, and take on non-ethnic names. And we changed our name from Bardizbanian to Bardiz. And my ancestors actually did not come from Armenia, they came from Georgia, which is north of Armenia, and a part of Russia, although Georgians do not like to be called Russians! [Laughs] So I took on the name of Gregory Bardiz, which since then I have maintained.

SEGRIST:

And spell Bardiz, please.

BARD:

B-A-R-D-I-Z.

SEGRIST:

Do you know anything about the day that you were born? Did anyone in your family every tell you a story about the day that you were born?

BARD:

I don't remember any event associated with the day I was born. I still recall the house where I was born. And the first event in my memory is actually when I was six or seven years old, and my brother, who was six years younger than I was, was in a baby carriage. And I was entered in some kind of an event, and the baby carriage was all covered with flowers. And I remember pushing the baby carriage in a little — in a park in Istanbul. That's the first event that I recall of my childhood.

SEGRIST:

What are some of your other very early memories?

BARD:

My early memories. When I was ten or eleven years old I used to visit my cousins. They had a garden. We did not have a garden in Istanbul, but they had a garden. They lived in the suburbs of Istanbul. And their garden, I remember, on weekends looking forward to visiting them, because we used to play cowboys and Indians, even at that time, which goes back to the early twenties now. And those were very happy experiences I had with my cousins.

SEGRIST:

You said that you remember the house. Can you describe the house for me, and maybe walk me through each room?

BARD:

The house was a three level house, and we had servants. We had a security servant who lived on the first floor, and he guarded the entrance of the house. And then we had another servant who was a cook. And then we had another servant who was a housekeeper. In those days, most middle class families had servants, or people that assisted with the house work. My, I recall that my mother would, once a week, would sit in the middle of our living room, and point to the servant what to clean, and how to clean, all that. The reason this is registered is my memory is because I returned to Turkey in 1939, after having lived here nine years, during which time I had to work my way through college and graduate school, and when I'd done all types of work, including janitorial work. And picking up papers off the floor was nothing for me; it was part of my, almost my culture! [Laughs] And when I went home--I recall this very well--I would see a piece of paper on the floor, and I'd pick it up and immediately put it in the waster paper basket, and my mother would chastise me, saying that that's not your job, that's the servant's job! [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

You said the house had three levels. How many rooms did it have?

BARD:

I don't remember exactly how many rooms we had. I would say six or seven. One other thing I remember about our house was we had electricity. And I remember when we converted from gas lamps into electricity. That happened early twenties.

SEGRIST:

Can you talk a little bit about what that process was?

BARD:

Well, it, after the Allies occupied Istanbul, the city became modernized very rapidly, because the Allies brought western culture to a town that was known as Constantinople until then, and was mostly of eastern culture. And most people would sit on the floors, and there were a lot of cushions. And, but, introduction of western culture, we introduced sofas. And we used to go to Turkish bathhouses once a week to bathe. That's how we kept clean. Whereas in the twenties, I recall very well that we put a modern bathroom — we converted one of the rooms into a modern bathroom, which was a good sized bathroom. And at that time, you did not bathe yourself; you always had somebody to bathe you, especially when you were a child. And I remember that there would be a — I think they still have it today in Turkish bathhouses — there's a big marble basin that you use for water, and then you douse yourself with this brass container, both hot and cold water. And so we had a good sized bathroom, which later we also put in a shower. We called it a douche. You would stand about five feet away from this shower that projected this very forceful water right at you. [Laughs] I remember that part. And after that, we took a bath almost every day. But before then, my mother used to take us to the Turkish bathhouse, which was at least a half a day event. You — the bathhouses had rooms of different temperature, but at the end you were absolutely exhausted, and you were covered with these large towels called burnoose. I think the word is still used today. And then you lie down to rest, and somebody would bring you a cold glass of lemonade, which tasted delicious!

SEGRIST:

You started telling me about the house being converted from gas light to electricity, and I asked you: do you remember what the process was, when they did that? What they have to do to convert the house to electricity?

BARD:

I don't remember the details of the conversion, but I do remember my mother buying different kinds of shades to cover the light bulbs. My mother was very modern. She was brought up in a French convent, and she spoke French fluently. In fact, we spoke French in the house, all of us did, and went to a French Catholic school. The first school I went to was a Turkish school. I learned to write in Arabic, which I can still do! [Laughs] And then, next school was a French School, a Jesuit school. And I spoke French quite fluently. But my parents felt that I was so taken up by the Catholic religion that they were concerned that I may want to become a Catholic someday, so they pulled me out of the school, and sent me to a private English school.

SEGRIST:

What denomination was your family?

BARD:

Orthodox.

SEGRIST:

They were?

BARD:

Orthodox. And so they — I went to this English school, which was non-denominational. And that's how I became acquainted with the English language. And then the movies, the American movies, were introduced into Istanbul, in the mid, late twenties. And I remember going to the movies. They were either French or American, and they were silent movies, with subtitles in English or French. And I still remember several movies that — in fact, I think I learned the English language by going to movies, and reading the subtitles!

SEGRIST:

Who were some of your favorite actors?

BARD:

Ronald Coleman was one I recall. Clara Bow is another. Francesca Bertini, an Italian actress; I remember her name. And I remember Broadway Melody of 1929 . "I'm Singing in the Rain," I remember that.

SEGRIST:

Where did you get the money to go to the movies?

BARD:

My parents gave me the money to go to the movies. My — we didn't have this American custom of giving your child so much a week. But at the same time, we were not denied — I wouldn't say luxuries, but necessities. And as I say, we were a middle class family, but we had a home on the islands, in the Sea of Marmara, and every summer we would live on the islands. And I had to take a ferry to come to Istanbul, and then take the streetcar to go to high school every day. So I had to get up pretty early. And sometimes the Sea of Marmara could be pretty stormy, and by the time I got there, to Istanbul, I was pretty sick! [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

I was wondering if we could maybe talk about your parents a little bit. What was your father's name?

BARD:

My father's name was Megerditch, which was John.

SEGRIST:

Can you spell that, please?

BARD:

M-E-G-E-R-D-I-T-C-H.

SEGRIST:

Thank you.

BARD:

And that stands for John.

SEGRIST:

What do you know about his upbringing, and his childhood?

BARD:

Well, he was born in Navan, which is a town near the Russian border, near Mount Ararat. And he came to Istanbul, where my grandfather, who came from Georgia, had a wholesale leather business. And my father worked for my grandfather, and gradually he took over the business. And then after World War One, he went to Czechoslovakia, and bought the secondhand shoe factory machinery. There was a very popular shoe in Europe — I think it's still there — called Bata, B-A-T-A, and he bought the old machinery, and opened up a shoe factory in Istanbul. And my mother's side, they — my grandfather from my mother's side was a highly educated person. He was an advisor to the Sultan of Turkey, and he was a publisher of a paper, and he also had written books. But I don't recall — I wasn't old enough to know about those books. But I remember that he was a highly revered person in Turkish politics.

SEGRIST:

What was your mother's name?

BARD:

Susan. My mother's name was Susan, and her maiden name was Ketch, K-E-T-C-H. And she was a very pretty woman, and very European. And she always kept up in style. I remember when cloche hats came on, she would be the first one to buy one. She was always up to date, fashion-wise.

SEGRIST:

What was her personality like?

BARD:

Very, very reserved, quiet, sedate, the kind of person that commands respect. Even when I went back in — when my father had died, in 1939 I was forced to go back to Turkey to settle the estate, because I was the eldest son. And the eldest son inherits everything, according to Turkish law. And so, I went back and had to sign a bunch of papers that attorneys gave me. And I went back October, 1939, from New York to Genoa. And this was the last trip of a passenger ship. At that time, World War Two was on already. World War Two had started, I think, sometime in August of 1939. And on my ship was David Niven. We were only a few of us on this ship, because as I say, it was the last. Nobody wanted to take a ship back to Europe, because the war was on, and submarines were everywhere. We had blackout on the ship.

SEGRIST:

What was the ship that you were on?

BARD:

It was an Italian ship. I can't remember the name, but it was an Italian ship, and it was the last trip that the ship made to Genoa. And later on I think it was used as a troopship, troop carrier. And we landed in Genoa, and then from Genoa I went through Italy, through Rome, and through Brindisi. I remember vividly how structured Italy was at that time, under Mussolini. And the Italian soldiers would strut around just like you see in the movies. And they were right about the trains running on time. And the whole country was not the Italy that we know today. [Laughs] It was quite different at that time. I remember that I stopped in Naples for a little while, because Naples is on the way to Brindisi, and went up to Mount Vesuvius, and walked over the hot lava that was erupting here and there. I used to have a photograph of that, and I don't think I can find it now. Those were experiences that are quite vivid in my mind. And then from Brindisi I took a boat, which was almost like a yacht, that took me from Brindisi through the Dardanelles, to Istanbul.

SEGRIST:

How had Turkey changed, when you went back in '39, from how it had been in '30, when you left?

BARD:

Well, Istanbul seemed much dirtier. And they tell me not as dirty as it is now! But, I think when I left Istanbul in 1930, the population was less than a million, and when I went back it was, I'm sure, over a million. It was quite congested. And because the war was on, there was a great deal of intrigue going on in Turkey. Turkey remained neutral throughout World War Two, but both sides were wooing Turkey, just like they did in World War One. And I remember that there were both German diplomats and Allied diplomats trying to gain favors from the Turks. END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE A BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE B

BARD:

The big change was that Kemal Ataturk had died, and I could see a change in this sense, that Turkey — when I left Turkey, all the mosques were closed. You were not allowed to pray. And of course, the alphabet had changed from Arabic to Latin; the calendar had changed to a Christian calendar, and people did not wear fezzes anymore. My father used to wear a fez. And all that, when I left in 1930, I could see that Turkey was becoming modernized very rapidly. Whereas when I went back in '39, I noticed that mosques were open again, people were praying, and I could sense that there was revitalization of the Moslem religion throughout Turkey. So that was the big change. I, of course, as soon as I went back and I settled my father's estate, there was only one thing on my mind, and that was to get out as fast as I could. And I knew it was going to be difficult, because I had not done my military service; I was still a Turkish citizen. So I had not done my military service, and immediately I was asked to conscript in the Army. I bribed my way out of it. That's something that you could do. And so I — you could not get out of it, but you could postpone it. So I postponed my draft day, and in the mean time, I went to the American Consulate, and tried to get a visa to come back in the United States, because I had just finished my master's degree from the University of Chicago, and I had my diploma. And now I was working on my Ph.D., and I had my professor send a letter stating that I was a Ph.D. candidate, and that he needed me to complete my research in parasitology and protozoology, which happened to be my majors at that time. So that helped me. That helped me get a visa to come back to United States. And I did that in March of 1940. So I really did not stay in Turkey too long, March of 1940. I could not take any money out. I was only allowed I don't remember how much, I think two thousand dollars was maximum. And even, I remember them inspecting my tires. The immigration officers inspected my tires to make sure I didn't have any diamonds hidden in my tires. And they looked at everything. But I managed to get out, and again, I came, I took a train to Genoa. And from Genoa, I took one of the American export lines to New York. Of course, most of those export lines were filled with Polish and German refugees that were escaping Germany. And I came to New York, and then took a train again across — no, I didn't. I just remembered. No, the first time, [laughs] 1930, I took the train across from New York to Stockton. I also took the Orient Express from Istanbul to Paris, 1930. But —

SEGRIST:

Actually, I'd like to bring us back to before you left Turkey the first time.

BARD:

Okay.

SEGRIST:

All right. Talk a little bit about going to school in Turkey. You mentioned, you started talking about this. You went to the Turkish school first, and then to the Catholic school. If you can elaborate on the experience of going to school in the 1920's in Istanbul?

BARD:

Well, the Catholic schools, the Jesuit school — I even remember the name of the school. It was Ecole Saint Jean Baptiste. And there, it was quite structured. Catholic schools are more structured than most private schools, and you had to take Catechism, of course. It was obligatory to take Catechism. And then I just remember that language was not much of a problem with me. I was able to cope with it with not much difficulty, particularly when we spoke French at home. But when I came to the English school, it was multicultural school, because my fellow students in the English school were — it was a non-denominational school, so we had Turkish, I had Turkish friends, I had Swiss friends, I had American friends, I had English friends. It was truly a multicultural school! And the whole student body, I'm sure, was a little over a hundred. [Phone rings] About —

SEGRIST:

Do you want to answer that? Shall I pause this?

BARD:

No, no. About eight or nine students per class, something like that. And in the English school, I took composition, and English literature, and English history. English schools always insist on English history. [Laughs] I learned more about English history than any other history! And at the end of the four years that I attended the English school, we matriculated. We had a professor come from England, and give us the examination to matriculate; I recall that. And at the same time I was corresponding with United States, with several colleges. I got catalogs from the Y.M.C.A. in Istanbul. And one of the thickest catalogs was from College of the Pacific, which is a smaller school in California at that time. But it was a Methodist school, and they said, "We take very good care of foreign students." And that kind of interested me! [Laughs] And that's the reason I actually felt that I belonged there. And so, I corresponded with them, and they accepted me, and I arranged — well, first I had to have permission from my parents, which was not easy. My father was very upset, because he expected me to follow his shoes and learn his business. And he finally allowed me to go for one year. And so he paid for my tuition, and enough for me to live on, for one year. But when the year was up, he asked me to come back, and when I didn't, he cut me off, just when I was forced to earn my way through college. Now that--at that time, I feel that I suppose I was emotionally not mature enough to appreciate my father's position, but now that I think back, I feel kind of guilty. When you're the parent, and you take care of everything of your children's needs, you sacrifice your time, your effort, and then when the time comes for you to enjoy their company, they take off! [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

Can you tell me a little bit about the role that the Y.M.C.A. played in your young life in Istanbul? Because obviously, that's a European organization.

BARD:

Yes. Y.M.C.A. was a very important organization in Istanbul at that time, because it was [telephone rings] non-denominational. We had Turkish students, as I said, minority students — Armenian, Greek, Jewish, French. They all belonged to the Y.M.C.A., and we all played together. Mostly, our number one sport was soccer, which they call football over there. And then, I played, because I went to an English school, I played cricket; I learned to play cricket. And then I was pretty good at it, and I was allowed to play for the English colony. That means that all the British people that lived in Istanbul had a little colony. On weekends they used to have a cricket field, and they went there and played cricket. And if you were a good player they would take you in as a member. Even while I was only fifteen, sixteen years old, I was pretty good with a bat, and so I was allowed to play there. Other than that, I remember that we were not too knowledgeable about physical fitness at that time, the way we are today. Because without training, you were asked to run cross-country. This is, the word cross-country is the word that they used at the time. It's like the marathon, we use marathon here today. It's not as far as a marathon, but it was pretty far. I don't remember how many miles we ran. But it was called cross-country, and you ran up and down the hills, not over a road. And we were not a bit prepared for it. I remember [laughs] nobody said that you were required to be trained to be able to run such a distance. And the same thing applied for soccer. We had very little instructions. I envy the young kids today, when they're so closely supervised and trained, [laughs] and indoctrinated in all the things that make you excel in sportsmanship. And in my day, when I was young, we didn't have any of that. I learned to ride the bicycle on my own; nobody taught me how. And everything that I did, it was by trial and error.

SEGRIST:

Did the Y.M.C.A. offer any other types of — you mentioned sports, a sports outlet. But did it offer any other types of outlet to the community?

BARD:

I think they had teachers for languages. That I remember, but I don't remember anything else. You could take language lessons in the Y.M.C.A.

SEGRIST:

I had asked you, or you told me earlier, about your mother's educational background. What was your father's educational background?

BARD:

I know nothing about my father's educational background. I don't even know if he went to school. I mean, I know he could read and write.

SEGRIST:

In what language?

BARD:

In Turkish and Armenian, in Greek, and in Russian. But it was all learned by exposure. I don't think — he might have had formal education, maybe grammar school, something like that, but I don't recall. He was an excellent businessman, very, very successful businessman. He, of course, became successful during World War One, when it was hard to get goods, because of the war. But somehow he was able to manage, because his leather business flourished during that time. And he had Turkish people come from all over to buy goods from him, and they stayed at our house! Now, that's strange, when twenty years before that, eight hundred thousands Armenians were massacred by the Turks, and you would expect people to have animosities. But I don't remember in our house that anybody talked about having animosities — none whatsoever. I was really blessed by my living in a household that was non-political. We had Jews visit our house, and stay with us. And I remember very well German Jews would come all the way from Germany, and stay at our house. And my father had business dealings with them over the shoe factory, and he bought and sold. We had Greeks stay at our house; we had Turks stay at our house. We — I was blessed in being brought up in diversified cultures.

SEGRIST:

Were there any ways that you know of that your family had been affected by the 1915 massacre? Any effect that it had on your family?

BARD:

Yes, oh, yeah! I remember my father or my grandfather saying that we lost about seventy relatives in the massacres, yeah. Yeah. I think it was mostly my mother's side. They, we lost quite a few members, yeah. But we, I think my grandfather's closeness to the Sultan might have helped us escape some of that, because the Sultan was always asking him for advice, about I don't remember now, something or other. And that might have helped.

SEGRIST:

Was that a time period that your parents, either in later years or even when you were growing up — was that a time period that they talked about to any great extent? What happened during that time period, was that something that they--?

BARD:

About the massacres?

SEGRIST:

Yeah, about what was going on at that time?

BARD:

Well, we talked about the massacres, and our, I think we were trying to decide whether as a result of that, we should try to escape, we should move out of Turkey, or not. But again, I think because of my grandfather's connections, we felt, I guess — I'm second guessing — that we felt kind of safe that we would not be bothered. But it was ominous. I remember, we were fearful that it may reach us. But —

SEGRIST:

Did you personally — of course, you would have been a very small child at that time — did you personally remember witnessing anything of that time?

BARD:

[Laughs] Yes, well, not that type of [unclear]. I remember witnessing, when Kemal Ataturk took over, I remember.

SEGRIST:

What do you remember seeing?

BARD:

Well, I remember seeing hangings, right there in the square. Yeah, as I was going to school. They were dangling. And some were dangling upside down, and some were dangling.

SEGRIST:

And who was being hanged?

BARD:

Mostly Turkish priests, the muezzins. Anybody that — well, there was a lot of intrigue at that time. When Kemal Ataturk took over, his biggest problem was — I mean, the only opposition he had for his reformation was within, was the Moslems. Just like Iran, identical situation. And he — it's just remarkable how he was able to completely reform the seat of the Moslem religion, which was the Ottoman. The Sultan, at the time, was the head of not only the government, but of the Moslem religion as well. There were the same. And for him to be able to overcome all that, and even though the Sultan was still living then! And eventually, the Sultan escaped. Incidentally, I danced with the Sultan's granddaughter at the New York World's Fair. [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

In 1939?

BARD:

1939! [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

How did that happen?

BARD:

Well, I worked for the Turkish pavilion, just before I left to go back to Turkey. And we were doing the Turkish dances every night, and one of our dances was the Sultan's granddaughter. I used to have a picture of her. And it was quite eventful!

SEGRIST:

Were there any others ways that, in your childhood, you witnessed first-hand these various conflicts that are going on in Turkey at that time, other than the hangings? Any other kind of experience that you were privy to, that reflects that turmoil going on?

BARD:

Well, I remember that we were very, very fearful of Kamel Ataturk visiting the schools. He was — he had tremendous amount of energy. He was everywhere. And he would, unannounced, he would come to a school, and pick up some students, and ask questions about Turkish history. And if you didn't know the answers, I don't know what would happen to the teacher! And we were all, we all learned our [laughs] histories, Turkish histories, quite well, to be sure that if he ever came to visit us, we would give the right answers. People were, they respected him, they admired him, and they were very fearful of him, all at the same time. He was very dynamic, very, very dynamic person with a lot of charisma. And I remember in school that we were always, if we saw a strange car come in front, we were wondering who that would be. [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

How did your parents feel about what he was doing in Turkey at that time?

BARD:

Well, I, of course, all the minorities loved him. All the minorities loved him. They couldn't believe that this would happen so fast, after World War One, that this would happen. Of course, the Greeks [laughs] didn't like him too much, because, especially the Greeks from Smyrna, because he was at war with the Greeks. After World War One, Turkey was decimated. There was nothing left in Turkey. And the Allies allowed the Greeks to invade Turkey. Of course, there were a lot of Greeks in Smyrna anyway; they lived there. Just like today in Macedonia, there are all kinds of people. So, and the Greeks invaded, and they were going all the way in. And Kamel Ataturk was a very renowned tactician. He had learned warfare in the Dardanelles. He stopped the British from getting through. So what he did is he allowed the Greeks to extend themselves into Asia Minor. Anatolia is a pretty big country, you know. And then when there were, the lines were too thin, he started cutting them off. And finally, he threw them out. And that was — a lot of books have been written about that.

SEGRIST:

Dr. Bard, we're going to stop just for a second, so I can put in another tape. We're just about done with Tape One. END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE B BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE A

SEGRIST:

Okay, we're now beginning Tape Two with Gregory Bard, who came from Turkey in 1930, when he was eighteen years old. We were just talking about the various conflicts that were going on in Turkey in the nineteen-teens and 1920's, and we were just talking about Kamel Ataturk, at the end of Tape One. I guess I'd like to steer the conversation back to your own personal experience, and tell me a little bit about what you knew about America as you were growing up. You did mention the movies earlier. How did you perceive America before you got there?

BARD:

Well, I sensed that there was a great deal of freedom of movement in America. We didn't have that in Turkey. And I sensed that America was land of opportunity. I was, I became an anglophile when I started going to an English school in Turkey, so that anything that had to do with American lifestyle appealed to me. And I had some friends in New York that sent me newspapers, American newspapers, now and then, and I would read in these newspapers. And I was just fascinated by the type of life that was going on in this country at that time. And I was not alone in this. I had two other friends; we both used to meet and discuss as to how we were going to come to America to take advantage of the opportunities that were here. And one of them was a Greek student, and the other one was a Jewish student. I can't remember their names now, but we, I remember that we would meet now and then, and discuss as to how to get here. Unfortunately, when the time came when we graduated [laughs], I was the only one that was able to convince my parents that I should go ahead with this. The other two, their parents wouldn't allow them, so they got left behind. But I corresponded with them afterwards. And the Greek student came a year later, and we corresponded, but we never, we weren't able to meet.

SEGRIST:

I'd to adjust your microphone here. Okay, there. You mentioned that your father was not too happy about you going. How did your mother feel?

BARD:

My mother actually encouraged me. She was, she felt that I should take advantage of the languages that I had learned, and she was not, at least she did not deter my efforts. But my father was very much against it.

SEGRIST:

Did your parents have their own perceptions about what America was?

BARD:

Yes, they did. They had both traveled in Europe, and in fact my father intended some day to come to America. So they — it wasn't that I was coming to a foreign country so much as it was that I was needed at home. That was the main obstacle. And you, at that time, when you were seventeen, eighteen years old, you were quite mature. At least, they expect a lot from you. And you should be able to take over a business, for instance, and learn to run the household. And your parents are very close to you. I remember that everything I did, my parents were involved with it. Occasionally, I was allowed to go out and visit some friend, but most of the time, the whole family would go on picnics together, and visit relatives together. There was a lot of closeness, family unity.

SEGRIST:

How many brothers and sisters did you have?

BARD:

I only have one brother.

SEGRIST:

One brother that you remember pushing in the baby carriage?

BARD:

Yeah, yeah. But, he was six years younger than I was, and he stayed behind. And when I went back in 1939 to inherit my family estate, I turned everything over to him.

SEGRIST:

And what was his name? BARD; His name was Onnik, O-N-N-I-K, and his last name was Bardiz, B-A-R-D-I-Z. Incidentally, the shoe that my father produced in his factory was called Megbar, M-E-G-B-A-R. He took the first three letters of his name, and the first three letters of our last name, so Megbar shoes.

SEGRIST:

What did you have to do to prepare to leave Turkey? [Bird chirping] You applied, obviously, to the college?

BARD:

I applied to the college, and I had to get a visa. And then you just had to have — oh, you had to take a physical examination from a physician that the American Consulate recognized, certified. [Bird continues chirping] So not only that, so when I came to Ellis Island, I had to be, again, re-examined. And they made sure that you didn't have a communicable disease.

SEGRIST:

What kind of a bird is that? That's okay. For the sake of the tape, that's what kind of a bird?

BARD:

[Laughs] Parakeet!

SEGRIST:

It's a parakeet.

BARD:

Baby.

SEGRIST:

And it's a little agitated right now.

BARD:

Baby parakeet. [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

Baby parakeet! [Laughs] I should say that here, for the sake of the tape, we're in a very lovely setting. There are, it's sort of a small vineyard around us, and beautiful roses. And Dr. Bard has quite a few parakeets in cages outside, and there are some inside.

BARD:

Mrs. Bard does. [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

Mrs. Bard. And also there are chickens, and two large —

BARD:

Dogs, Great Pyrenees!

SEGRIST:

Great Pyrenees: big, white, friendly dogs. And of course, Hansie has been with us for most of the interview, the Dachshund. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you. But you said you had to have the physical?

BARD:

Yeah.

SEGRIST:

And does anything stick out in your mind about that physical, before you left?

BARD:

Well, I had some apprehension when I took my physical, to make sure that I did not have some kind of an exotic Turkish disease that would be unacceptable. But I passed. And then when I came to Ellis Island, I remember a little bit about the ship I came on.

SEGRIST:

Well wait, wait, we haven't gotten you out of Turkey yet! [Laughs]

BARD:

Oh, okay.

SEGRIST:

We try to do this as chronologically as we can! Where did you have to go to get your visa?

BARD:

I don't remember where I went — American Consulate.

SEGRIST:

In Istanbul?

BARD:

In Istanbul, mm-hm.

SEGRIST:

And do you remember what you packed to take with you to America?

BARD:

I remember very well what I packed. It was too much!

SEGRIST:

What was it?

BARD:

Well, I packed the way any novice packs today when you travel for the first time: too much of everything. I had too many clothes. I remember I had a trunk full of Turkish candy alone — different kinds of Turkish candy. Because what I had in mind was when I came to the college, I was going to bribe my school friends with giving them candy, Turkish candy. And I have — I guess it's not the right time to talk about that yet, right, about my coming to College of the Pacific?

SEGRIST:

No, well, we'll get you there. We'll get you there.

BARD:

Okay. No, and then at Ellis Island, I took the examination. I had to stay overnight to take the physical examination. We all slept on cots, on just bare cots with a blanket on top of us. But being young, any physical adversities did not matter so much, as long as things were going the right direction.

SEGRIST:

Did anyone give you anything in Turkey as a present, or a goodbye memento?

BARD:

Yes, oh yes! They gave me, I received a gold toothpick. That was something to behold! It was a very small, thin, cylindrical toothpick that you would roll for the toothpick part to come out, and then it would go back in again, just like a pen. And I used to show it to people, and nobody knew what it was, until you were actually able to get the toothpick out. That was given to me. And then, people gave me wallets and trinkets. And I still have one of the wallets that I came with, all this time.

SEGRIST:

Was there some sort of a gathering for you, in commemoration of your leaving?

BARD:

Not the first time. The second time, in 1940, they gave a small party for me, but not the first time.

SEGRIST:

Do you remember saying goodbye to your parents the first time?

BARD:

Oh, yes. I, there were a lot of tears, and it was very, very emotional thing, because I had, actually had never traveled before. This was my first trip going nine thousand miles away from home, and I didn't have a single friend or relative in the whole country, in United States. And so, it was — but at that age, I think, you feel invincible. I don't think those things bother you. As a matter of fact, I had a very adventurous spirit, from the days that I used to play Buffalo Bill, and Indians and cowboys with my cousins. I recall that at that time, I used to, we used to have a home on the Bosporus, near a place called Tirapia. And the American Embassy had a summer home there, with a big estate. And we used to go to embassy grounds, and play with the daughter of the Ambassador, my cousins and myself, and my friends, and we used to explore the Embassy grounds. It was just like wilderness. And I'm trying to think of the name of the American Ambassador, who was quite famous. He was deaf, and he became Ambassador to Japan during World War Two.

SEGRIST:

Well, maybe it'll come while we're talking.

BARD:

His name escapes me now. But anyway, the Bosporus used to be very, very picturesque place where — it was very much like Marin County here. In the old days, people used to have summer homes in Marin County, and that's the way the Bosporus was.

SEGRIST:

Were any of your ideas about America formulated from your exposure to these people?

BARD:

Absolutely! Oh, yes, yes. And I don't know why, but there was a difference between meeting an American, and meeting an English person.

SEGRIST:

What was the difference?

BARD:

I think Americans seemed a little bit more friendlier, and not as structured in their behavior, as the English boys were. And I mean, for some reason, even though I still consider myself an anglophile, Americans appeal to me more.

SEGRIST:

Well, let's get you to America. Where did you go to get on the ship?

BARD:

I took the Orient Express from Istanbul to Paris, direct.

SEGRIST:

What sticks out in your mind about being on the Orient Express for that trip?

BARD:

Well, I had a very comfortable private room. I haven't had one as luxurious as that since then. I remember that part of it. I had a private bed, private bathroom, private wash basin. I went first class from Salem to Auckland about a year ago [laughs], first class, and I thought I was getting the same kind of — what a difference!

SEGRIST:

It's different now! [Laughs] How long did that take, to go from Istanbul to Paris on the Orient Express?

BARD:

About five days.

SEGRIST:

Did you see anything on that trip that was new to you?

BARD:

Well, the only thing that I was looking forward was going through the Simplon Tunnel I mean, everybody talked about the Simplon Tunnel, the way they talk about the train that goes from London to Paris now, you know.

SEGRIST:

The Chunnel?

BARD:

The Chunnel, yeah. And it was just as exciting. It was just as exciting, going through the Simplon. I remember that. The rest of it, it was very, I remember it was very, very luxurious. And I got off in Paris. I stayed in a hotel at Rue Saint Honore, and I went to — in those days we had, instead of discos then, we had — oh, what did you call those? Not the theater, but —

SEGRIST:

Cabaret?

BARD:

Cabarets, yeah. And Luna Park, that's where I went in Paris. Well, like the Tivoli in Copenhagen — identical, just like the Tivoli in Copenhagen. You have a little bit of everything. And I remember going there. And then when my time came, I went from Paris to Le Havre, to pick up the Lancastria.

SEGRIST:

And how did you get to Le Havre?

BARD:

Train, I took the train. And I took — I don't remember what class I went, but I had a cabin.

SEGRIST:

What was the name of the ship again?

BARD:

Lancastria.

SEGRIST:

Lancastria.

BARD:

It was another big ship, Cunarder. It was, but that time I didn't get seasick. I remember a rather terrible storm, but I was too young to be seasick. But —

SEGRIST:

Had you been on a large ship before?

BARD:

Never. No, the only ships I'd been was the ferry from Istanbul to the islands.

SEGRIST:

What were some of the things that you saw on the ship, things that made impressions on you?

BARD:

Well, I played ping pong every day with several other students on the ship. There was one Russian student, and we were rivals. And I think we got into a tournament, and I think he beat me at the end. And I remember that, playing ping pong. Other than that, I don't remember.

SEGRIST:

Were there other people in your cabin with you?

BARD:

No.

SEGRIST:

No, you had a cabin to yourself? How about eating on the ship?

BARD:

I don't remember much about the food, about Lancastria. I think the Lancastria took about nine days to cross the Atlantic.

SEGRIST:

You mentioned that there was a storm?

BARD:

We had a storm, yeah. A bad, bad storm.

SEGRIST:

Anything specific about that storm?

BARD:

Well, I remember [laughs] I remember being on the deck, and with the waves coming over, and you had to hang on. I was, I didn't have the proper clothes for that. But —

SEGRIST:

What time of the year is this?

BARD:

This is August.

SEGRIST:

August of 1930.

BARD:

August of 1930.

SEGRIST:

Did you have your luggage with you in the cabin?

BARD:

Yes, uh-huh. I had — they were all too heavy. The porters carried everything. And as I say, I took too much with me. And I, in New York — I don't know where I stayed in New York. I don't remember a thing about where I stayed, and I don't remember — I took the train directly to Stockton.

SEGRIST:

What happened when the ship came into New York Harbor?

BARD:

Well, we went, first place we went was we all went to Ellis Island. I don't know how I managed my luggage. And we were all directed, I remember, we were always lining up. And we were directed on Ellis Island, and they all inspected our passports. And I don't know if you had to declare how much money you had or not. But then — I had American Express money, I remember. I did not have cash.

SEGRIST:

Traveler's checks?

BARD:

Traveler's checks, yeah. I had traveler's checks.

SEGRIST:

What happened to you on Ellis Island? You had to stay overnight, I know.

BARD:

I had to stay overnight, and have a, just had a medical examination. And then some people, I remember, were kept on Ellis Island longer, but I was — I think being a student helped a lot. And we just, we got on those little boats, the ones at the dock, and we — I don't remember.

SEGRIST:

Do you remember anything about sleeping at Ellis Island?

BARD:

I remember sleeping on the cot at Ellis Island; I remember that part.

SEGRIST:

How about eating at Ellis Island?

BARD:

No, that I don't remember.

SEGRIST:

Any details about the medical inspection?

BARD:

I remember undressing, and I don't remember the face of the doctor who examined me. But I remember undressing and that's about all. They took my blood, and that's about all. I, after that, the only thing I remember is, again, being on the train, on the way to California. It was again a very, it was a private train, and very comfortable. And I remember I befriended an elderly lady on the train. She happened to be a member of the Crocker family, but at that time it didn't mean anything to me. [Laughs] So, but then I came to Stockton, and I had so much luggage that it wouldn't fit in a taxi. I had to have a special truck, a small truck, to carry my luggage. And I remember very well coming to the dormitory, and meeting one of the students, two students. My roommate's name was Horace Sharrocks, S-H-A-double-R-O-C-K-S. And he remained my friend until today. He lives in Sebastopol.

SEGRIST:

Not too far away from here?

BARD:

Not too far away from here. That's — how many years is that?

SEGRIST:

Well, this is '99, so that's almost seventy years ago.

BARD:

Almost — sixty-nine years ago. The other one, unfortunately, died about ten years ago, David--Johnny Hoobyar.

SEGRIST:

Spell that, please.

BARD:

H-O-O-B-Y-A-R. Originally from Turlock. His brother is still living in Willis, up above Sacramento. And Johnny had a wonderful voice. But Horace Sharrocks was my roommate. As soon as we met, he said, "Where are you coming from?" I said, "From Constantinople." I said, "Where are you from?" He said, "Seoul, Korea." And I said, "We're from antipodes." He says, "What?" I said, "Antipodes." And he still tells it — he didn't say anything to me then. He says immediately he went to a dictionary to look up what antipodes meant! [Laughs] It was funny that even though I was only eighteen years old, I had quite an extensive vocabulary — probably more than I do now! [Laughs] Even though I wasn't that familiar with the language, in the ordinary sense, but as far as vocabulary goes, in an English school, they really teach you the meaning of words. And antipodes was something that was just an ordinary word for me, which means opposite ends. So he was from Seoul, Korea; his parents were missionaries there. He was an American that lived in Seoul, Korea. And so we became very, very good, close friends. And I was very lucky to have him as a roommate. END OF TAPE TWO, SIDE A BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE B

SEGRIST:

Tell me about some of the adjustments you had to make, having come from another country, to be a student at this school, and function--?

BARD:

Oh, that was very, very rough! Extremely rough. After a while, our rooms were separated. Then I got a private room, and he got a private room. And at that time college life was quite different. If you were a freshman, you had to wear moleskin pants.

SEGRIST:

Moleskin?

BARD:

Moleskin pants. People don't even know what it is today.

SEGRIST:

Isn't it like a soft material?

BARD:

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. If you were a sophomore, you wore jeans. If you were a junior, you wore corduroys, and if you were a senior, you could wear anything. Now, you don't take this lightly. There was a great deal of rivalry between the freshmen and sophomores. And when they found out there was this foreign student, they really — it was just like fraternity hazing. Every night they would take me out; they would beat me up! They would dump me out ten miles away — I had to walk back. I mean, it was just a nightmare! And they stole all my candy, Turkish candy. [Laughs] It was a real nightmare! I cried every night for about six months, in college. I didn't know — I mean, I didn't dare write to my father and say, "Get me out of here," but I should have. I just didn't dare. I just put up with it. Because there were other kids that were nice to me, and friendly. But —

SEGRIST:

Was this going on with other freshmen also, or do you think it was just prejudice towards you because--?

BARD:

It was a rivalry, as I said before. But when they saw a foreign student, it was — they really zeroed in on me, especially; I had an accent. Kids that age take advantage of each other. Just like you're reading in the papers about what happened in Colorado.

SEGRIST:

Horrible [unclear].

BARD:

The same kind of, you know, this rivalry goes on. I mean, in my day we didn't have guns! [Laughs] We didn't deal that way! I mean, worse come to worse, you just hit in the face with your fist; that was it. That was most, you know. But there was a great deal of rivalry. And they were cruel; they were quite cruel to me. I didn't join — well, I don't remember. The first year I don't think you could join fraternities, but I didn't. I never joined a fraternity. I pledged, but never joined. I couldn't afford it, number one. And I started school. I signed up for football, and I played football all my life so I thought, nothing to it. Then I find out this isn't football that I know, you know? So I couldn't play American football! I didn't even know how to hold the ball, so I couldn't do that. And nobody had heard of soccer at that time. So I didn't participate in any sports. But it was a year of indoctrination, and it was pretty rough. [Telephone rings]

SEGRIST:

Do you remember any kind of prejudice directed at you from the faculty, or from adults at the college, because you were, perhaps, different than the other students?

BARD:

No, the faculty were just the opposite. They were very kind to me. They would bring me to their home on weekends. I remember being invited to dinner at their home on weekends. And some of the students were very kind to me! That Christmas I was invited to somebody's home for several days, way up in Auburn or someplace, northern California. I remember going in a car. But for the most part, being a freshman, that year was pretty rough. And after I became a sophomore, I gradually became indoctrinated. And then when I pledged a fraternity, then smooth sailing after that.

SEGRIST:

Were there any other students or faculty members who had come from a similar cultural background?

BARD:

I was [laughs] the only one I remember! And I remember going to the library to get a book, and they all detected my accent. Of course, they had to ask me where I was from. So when the librarian said, "Where are you from?" I said, "Turkey." She stopped and said, "Is that in South America?" This is a librarian! That's how provincial! You have no idea how provincial the whole state of California was at that time!

SEGRIST:

How did that make you feel, when she said that to you?

BARD:

Well, I felt terrible, I really did! It was so demeaning! I said, "How can I expect these people, [laughs] when they don't even know where I am from? And here I came to this college thinking that I'm going to be enlightened!" [Laughs] It was very depressing. I remember that, very, very depressed! That's why I still remember this. I still remember. This is a librarian — not just an ordinary professor, but a librarian!

SEGRIST:

Were there ways that you consciously tried to Americanize yourself?

BARD:

Yes! I did everything I could to Americanize myself. I tried to — well, I just practically threw away all my clothes, because believe it or not, I had plus fours. Do you know what plus fours are? [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

Plus fours.

BARD:

Well, they're the golf pants.

SEGRIST:

Oh, the knicker!

BARD:

Knicker, yeah! [Laughs] I had those! I mean, my clothes did not fit at all. Everything was so casual here, and I was so formal, you know. I had ties and everything. But everything was very, very casual. So I tried to Americanize myself. Of course, I wanted to go out with girls! And I couldn't, because I didn't have a car. In those days, no girl would go out with you if you did not have a car. I'm not exaggerating. And so I had to borrow a car, but I didn't know how to drive! I had — this student had to teach me how to drive in one afternoon, so that I could take that girl out that night! Well, that was a horror story. And eventually, though, I did learn how to drive. And what little money I had, I would go and buy a car, and so I could date. And in no time the car would be repossessed. Time after time, as soon as I saved up a few dollars I'd buy a car, and then three, four months later it would be repossessed, because I couldn't afford to make the payments.

SEGRIST:

Did you find that your foreign status, your exoticism, if you will, was actually an attraction for young women at that time?

BARD:

Yes and no. Some would shun me, and some would look upon me with favor, yeah. It went both ways. I decided that just open dates were not for me, because I was very careful. My father, before, as I was a teenager, my father took me to the science museum in Istanbul, and showed me what happens to you if you catch a venereal disease. And believe me, [laughs] some of the horror pictures that I saw in the museum! I just — I had to be very, very careful, very careful. And if I thought a girl was going with somebody else, that wasn't for me, you know. And I had — like, I had to find a virgin, something like that. Not virgin in the sense of promiscuity, but virgin in the sense of just even companionship. And so, I started going to church, the Methodist Church. Through the church, when we had a social hour, I met the young lady, young girl. And I kind of — I was naïve in those days. [Laughs] I kind of thought that, well, she's a church-going girl, so she must be good, and all that stuff. So we started dating together, and I dated her for four years after that. And we, I became part of her family. Her mother was a — both mother and father are schoolteachers. And they accepted me, and that made me feel at home.

SEGRIST:

Did she express interest in learning about your cultural background, and the sort of world that you had come from?

BARD:

No. I don't remember. As I say, at that time, I hate to say this, but people were prejudiced, not only against me — I was down at the bottom of the totem pole. They were prejudiced against Italians, they were prejudiced against Mexicans! [Laughs] They were prejudiced — I mean, they were prejudiced against Jews. They were prejudiced against blacks; you never saw a black in Stockton, not even one! But, prejudiced against Filipinos; I remember that. So, I mean, girls wouldn't date you at all. I went with another girl for quite a while, until she took me home. And when she told her parents that I was from Turkey, I could see their faces just drop down like that! And that was it. They would not allow her to go with me anymore. She was from Sonora; we went to Sonora. I remember that. Can you imagine that? And this is 1934, '35, not 1930. But you know, yeah, it was, no, there was — it was a different kind of prejudice.

SEGRIST:

What aspect of America did you like the most when you got here?

BARD:

Well, I think — I liked everything about America. The only part — I still like everything about America. The only part I don't like about America is politics! [Laughs] But I like everything else about America!

SEGRIST:

Because I mean, it seems to me that you had a rather difficult time when you first got here, and I'm just wondering, what was the other side of that coin? I mean, what made it all worth it for you? Say, what part of your life here did you really enjoy, that was so different?

BARD:

I think the freedom of movement. That made a big difference. I was only in college — in 1933, for instance. A friend of mine from Highland Park asked me to visit him, because of the World's Fair in Chicago. And I didn't have any money, very little — a few dollars, maybe. I just packed myself a little bag, and hitchhiked from Stockton to Chicago, in 1933! And that idea, being able to do that! I remember being stuck [unclear] in the middle of the desert, trying to hitchhike my way! [Laughs] And even at that, I think I made it in about five days. And being picked up, and there was no crime that I can remember on the highways at that time. And I went — he came from a wealthy family, and they took us to the — I had a wonderful week with him. They took us to the World's Fair, and we had some good parties. And then I came back with him. But I went back and forth across the country at least five, six times. What other area can you do this? Where else in the world [laughs] can you do this, you know? And people are so hospitable! It was so nice. I mean, whenever — I remember so many times that I was taken into somebody's home, and I was fed, and things like that, that became part of my life. I just —

SEGRIST:

Do you remember in the 1930's in this country, coming in contact, in some way, with any other person of Armenian background who had come to America from Turkey?

BARD:

Not one. I did not even know Fresno was the Armenian capital of the world! I didn't even know that! Maybe it wasn't at that time. I didn't know about Fresno until much later — much later, maybe in the forties or fifties, after I read Saroyan, yeah. I think Saroyan made Fresno.

SEGRIST:

Well, we have just a few minutes left. Why don't you kind of just bring me through the rest of your adult life? You've already talked about the trip back to Turkey. You came back in 1940.

BARD:

Yes. Then, I attended University of California as a graduate student. Instead of going back to the University of Chicago, I came back to University of California as a graduate student, again majoring in parasitology and protozoology. And I was a teaching assistant in anatomy and histology at the University of California, while going after my degree. And then the war, of course, was, broke, in 1941. We entered the war. So, here I was as a Ph.D. candidate, and I found out that I could be drafted, or, incidentally, at that time I had become an American citizen. In order to become an American citizen I had to go to Canada and reenter United States on a permanent visa. Then it was easier to become an American citizen. But I found out that as a — even with a Ph.D., you couldn't become an officer in the Army. You had to become a private. Well that [laughs] — I mean, it was a sure thing that I was going to be drafted, you know, when you were at that age group, and the war was progressing. So I went to my professor, and I put my hands, I said, "What am I going to do?" He said, "Well," he said, "Would you like to go to medical school?" I says, "Well, yes. I'd like to go to medical school." He said, "Do you have all the prerequisites?" I said, "I have more than the prerequisites," because all this time I'd been doing graduate work, you know? So he said, "Well, if somebody drops out, you can get in." [Laughs] So somebody did drop out, and I entered the class that I was teaching at University of California Medical School. And that Professor was Dr. J.B. Saunders, an Englishman. And so I entered medical school, and I graduated in 1947, and I did my internship there at the University of California. And then for my residency training I went to University of Illinois in Chicago for a year. And then two years at Mass General Hospital in Boston, and then I took my board exams in physical medicine and rehabilitation. And then the Korean War was on, so I got in the Army, this time as a medical officer during the Korean War. And I was assigned at Brooks Army Hospital at Fort Sam in Texas, and then Camp Atterberry in Indiana, and then Walter Reed Hospital in Washington D.C. And then in 1954, I came back to California, taking my chances, to see if I could establish a practice. And I was lucky enough to have one of the professors at the University of California give me an appointment on the faculty, and I've been there ever since. [Laughs] So.

SEGRIST:

And you married?

BARD:

I've been married twice. I married first time in 1943, and was divorced in 1955, and then remarried my present wife in 1957, and we've been married ever since; that's forty-two years.

SEGRIST:

And children?

BARD:

I have a son from my previous marriage, and she has a son. Her son is like my son, because he's been with me the whole time.

SEGRIST:

What are your two sons' names?

BARD:

My son's name is Tommy, Tom Bard. And my wife's son's name is Steve.

SEGRIST:

And what ethnic background is your wife?

BARD:

Her maiden name is Mitchell. She's an Army brat. And she's English, Irish, Anglo-Saxon background.

SEGRIST:

And does your son have any interest in learning about your cultural background, and your history?

BARD:

Not — well, he knows. I think he does — how shall I put it? He's not disinterested. He's interested, because whenever his friends talk to him, he'll say, "Ask my Dad; he knows all about that!" you know. So he's aware of my background. And he's been a very, very good son. He's fifty-four years old now! [Laughs] But unfortunately is still single, and —

SEGRIST:

Has he ever been to Turkey?

BARD:

Yes! Yes, he not only went to Turkey, but he was escorted by the same chauffeur that escorted us. Oh, I took my wife to Turkey in 1974, and we went to my old high school, all the places that I visited.

SEGRIST:

What kind of a connection, if any, did you feel when you were there?

BARD:

Very nostalgic. Very, very nostalgic. I still do, you know. It's just, I guess everybody's that way. I just can't help it. It's such an exotic country, especially Istanbul, that area — very much like San Francisco. It's along the water; it's multicultural, even today, very multicultural. And I like that. I like anything — I mean, when I see a Greek lady, I speak Greek to her, you know! [Laughs] When I meet somebody Turkish, the language comes back to me, even though I don't talk about it. French, for instance, is like my native tongue. When I go to France, in about two, three days, it's natural. It's just, I'm able to speak it without any difficulty.

SEGRIST:

What do you think would have happened to you had you never come to the United States?

BARD:

Oh, I probably would have left Turkey some time later on, I'm sure.

SEGRIST:

It was just in the cards?

BARD:

Yeah. I have an adventurous spirit. We have, after I married Joan, we have been all over the world. We have gone, traveled, all over. And I have a natural curiosity. In fact, I have a natural curiosity about life itself. Just, that's what did medicine to me. It gave me, even today, I read scientific literature about anything that has to do with life. I'm fascinated. Right now, I'm fascinated about the Balkans! [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

That's right, you said you were reading--?

BARD:

Yeah. But basically, I'm fascinated about life, how life evolved itself into what we are today. There's a saying in scientific language: ontogeny is a brief recapitulation of phylogeny. Now, this is the foundation of life. You know what I'm saying? This is the foundation: the lifespan of a being goes back to the millions and millions of years where he started. And to me, it's just — of course, now that we're going beyond the earth, we're going to the universe and discovering so much about the universe.

SEGRIST:

We need to end now. We're exactly out of time right now, but I want to thank you very much, Dr. Bard.

BARD:

Again, I hope I didn't bore you! [Laughs]

SEGRIST:

No, no, you were great! All right, this is Paul Segrist, signing off with Dr. Gregory Bard on May 1 st , 1999, at his very lovely home in Sonoma, Calfornia, with Hansie curled up in Dr. Bard's lap, sound asleep, during the interview. Thank you very much. END OF INTERVIEW