SIGRIST:

Good morning this is Paul SIGRIST for the National Park Service. Today is Friday February 10, 1995. I'm at the Ellis Island recording studio with Tom Bradley, the assistant superintendent of Statue of Liberty/ Ellis Island National Monument. Mr. Bradley came to this site in February of 1988 and will be leaving us soon and so were going to talk about his experience here. Anyway, good morning. Thank you for doing this.

BRADLEY:

Good morning, Paul.

SIGRIST:

Can we begin by you giving me your birth date, please?

BRADLEY:

My birth date is August 7, 1946.

SIGRIST:

And where were you born?

BRADLEY:

I was born in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania.

SIGRIST:

And can you give me sort of a thumb nail sketch of your family background?

BRADLEY:

Uh, my dad worked for International Mining Company and we lived in a lot of different places. I grew up in Florida, Illinois, just outside of London near Hampton Court in England, uh, my family also lived in Australia. So we bounced around quite a bit. I went to college at the University of Wyoming. I graduated 1968 and in those days, when you graduated in the '60's, you found yourself wearing a uniform very quickly. So I was in the army with in a few weeks. Went through the army, went to Vietnam, uh, was a paratrooper in Special Forces. Uh, it wasn't as bad as it sounds. It was, um, passed very quickly. I retuned for a year of graduate school and then I started work in the national park service approximately 1972 or '73, some where in there.

SIGRIST:

Just for the sake of the tape may, I just have your father's name please?

BRADLEY:

Yes. William Thomas Bradley.

SIGRIST:

Mother's name?

BRADLEY:

Jean Juergens Bradley.

SIGRIST:

Spell Juergens, please.

BRADLEY:

J-U-E-R-G-E-N-S.

SIGRIST:

And your full name, please.

BRADLEY:

Thomas Alan Bradley and the Alan is A-L-A-N.

SIGRIST:

Um, I wish we were doing a different oral history project, there are some interesting avenues in that rundown. (They laugh). Let me ask you what attracted you, initially, to the Park Service? What was appealing about it to you?

BRADLEY:

Well I have to be honest, I mean, I ended up in the Park Service, fortunately, but I applied for other jobs in my life, didn't get them, I got this job. I had a high civil service score, I was a veteran, and, um, I was amazed that I was so lucky to get a job in the park service and was paid to do the things I did. The first job was patrolling the beach at Cape Hatteris [ph] National Seashore. It was just a marvelous experience. But I've always- the thing about the Park Service to me is the- you can almost be a renaissance man, you can get to do a lot of different things. You have a mission in running a park but there are a lot of disciplines that go into that mission and I particularly enjoyed, in the management spear, being able to balance those competing- sometimes competing disciplines- to get a job done.

SIGRIST:

I'm curious, before we get into the details of all of this, you moved around so much as a child, how do you think that affected maybe the way you perceive what you do as an adult? I mean, did it have any affect on you, um, because I know you, sort of, as an adult moved around to a certain degree yourself and I was just wondering if there is any relationship to those two experiences?

BRADLEY:

Um, I think it's made me comfortable moving. I moved a lot as a child and I moved a lot in the park service but I- facing now with the first time, after twenty something years in the park service, with buying a home for the first time, I think maybe that is going to be a sea change, having to own a home verses in the past we lived in government quarters and the moves have been a little bit easier. Um, but I'm comfortable. Now my children have grown up six years in the Virgin Islands and now seven years in New York and their- they don't share this mobility that I think I grew up with, so that will be a change for them.

SIGRIST:

Well, and they've grown up in these two completely different environments.

BRADLEY:

Right.

SIGRIST:

Totally. Well, lets begin. You said your first job was at Cape Hatteris [ph] and, um, you said you were patrolling the beach?

BRADLEY:

Yeah, Cape Hatteris [ph] is one of the first National Seashores. It's a beautiful park. Tremendous storms, tremendous northeasters in the winter, beautiful light house. I was there for a year or so. I got into the intake program with the National Park Service, which sent me out to Grand Canyon for the Ranger Intake Program. We also spent a month at George Williams College outside of Chicago. And the early seventies was a great focus on urban interpretation. Uh, we spent a week in Chicago in the inner city. The same with the Grand Canyon. My first assignment was- as an Intake Ranger was at the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal National Historical Park outside of Sharpsburg, Maryland, which is a beautiful place. It's a little like stepping back into Europe. The roads are very small and winding and a lot of stone farmhouses, and just a magnificent park. It was a fairly new park, I enjoyed that. I was there for maybe three years and we went to Cape Cod National Seashore where we spent two years. Another magnificent park. Uh, Cape Cod is a fairly big operation but it's very seasonal, very intense summers, a lot of activity. I was up until this time a protection ranger. One of the downsides there was in those days there was a great focus on enforcing the nudity regulations. And I would dread, after lunch, going out on to the beach and seeing nudes and having to write all these tickets. (Laughs). I think the park's got a more Lazze [ph] Fair attitude now then they did in those days.

SIGRIST:

This is mid seventies?

BRADLEY:

This was mid seventies. Mid-late seventies.

SIGRIST:

For the sake of the tape, can you explain exactly what it meant to be a protection ranger at that park at that time?

BRADLEY:

Yeah. Um, well, I'd been to police school in Washington DC, which in those days was fourteen weeks. This was a precursor to the present, um, FLETC, which is the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe-

SIGRIST:

Spell FLETC for us please.

BRADLEY:

Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glencoe, Georgia. Prior to Glencoe we went to Washington DC with the regular Park Police training, which I did. Uh, basically the rangers would enforce the laws in the park. In some of the Eastern Parks it was usually concurrent jurisdiction which meant that you shared with the local police. Later, when for example I was in Sequoya, we had exclusive jurisdiction which meant that the rangers were the only law enforcement in the parks. I think one thing I've seen in my career is a shift in law enforcement from when, in my youth in the seventies, it was just another tool. I think law enforcement has evolved, for better, for worse, into its own mission in the park service and I've seen that change take place.

SIGRIST:

You were at Cape Cod for a couple of years?

BRADLEY:

A couple of years until 1978. We then moved to Sequoya Kings Canyon. I was a sub district ranger at Sequoya Kings Canyon. Even the sub district there was 80 thousand acres, it was quite large. Sequoya is an old line national park, very traditional. It abuts largely National Forest Lands. A lot of traditional Park Ranger discipline such as search and rescues, fire fighting, scuba diving, skiing, cross country skiing. Lots and lots of body recoveries unfortunately, people would drown in the rivers. Very traditional assignment which I think is wonderful to go through but I wouldn't want to do my whole career doing that. Magnificent park, very pretty. We left there in 1981 and went to the Virgin Islands where I was the superintendent at two small national historic sites, Christian Stead National Historic Site and Buck Island Reef National, uh, National Monument.

SIGRIST:

Tell me a little bit about what your duties were there and what kinds of parks those were.

BRADLEY:

Um, the feeling among people, many people, as the Virgin Islands as a sleepy place where you go for a vacation. Working there you tend to work very hard as you would any small site. There's some challenges due to remoteness. St. Croy [ph] is 1100 miles south east of Florida. It's a long way away, its somewhat expensive, there's a fair amount of racial tension, fair amount of crime. But the good side is you get in the National Park Service the what's as close as your going to get to a foreign assignment, working with a lot of different people, different Virgin Islanders- American Virgin Islanders and British Virgin Islanders and Down islanders and Puerto Ricans and it was just, uh, I loved it down there, it was a great place. It was a little bit hard on my wife because in- as in a lot of remote assignments, it is difficult for two working spouses to find good jobs.

SIGRIST:

That's right and you have consistently said that "we moved here" and "we moved there", so we should get your wife in here. What's her name?

BRADLEY:

Yes, right. Betsey Bradley.

SIGRIST:

Maiden name?

BRADLEY:

Betsy Hunter. And we meet back when I was at the C & O Canal, she was a museum conservator at the Harpers Ferry National Historic Site.

SIGRIST:

And what year did you marry?

BRADLEY:

We married in 1975.

SIGRIST:

I see. So she's going all around the places too, with you.

BRADLEY:

Yes, right. And usually as I would promote, she would go down a notch so it's been hard on her sometimes.

SIGRIST:

Tell me what you liked most about being in the Virgin Islands position. I mean, what did you really enjoy about being there?

BRADLEY:

It was my first Park Management job, which I loved. I loved the resource. Christian Stead is a Danish Colonial site dating from the 17-1800. We did a tremendous amount of historic restoration work. I really enjoyed that, I think I made a difference. I- my staff- our staff down there was like a family. It was a little bit exotic and I really- I really enjoyed that. Also Buck Island Reef is just a beautiful park, you can only reach it by, um, by a six mile boat ride. The waters crystal clear, the coral formations are just world class, a wonderful site.

SIGRIST:

What the most difficult thing, personally, for you to manage in those two park sites?

BRADLEY:

Um, I think in the back of my mind was perhaps the fear of crime. We'd known people who had been hurt in crime. It's probably strange it seems worse then New York City as far as violent crime per capita. It's something behind, in the back of your mind, that you worry about. It fortunately never- never hurt us at all.

SIGRIST:

Violent crime meaning assault and robbery or are we talking murder?

BRADLEY:

Assault, robbery, murder, um, in the Virgin Islands, in the seventies, there was what was called the Fountain Valley Massacre where a group of disgruntled local people pretty much slaughtered a dozen or so people on a golf course and that's always cast a shadow on St. Croy [ph] in particular.

SIGRIST:

Oh.

BRADLEY:

I think they've gotten beyond that but you've got a- pretty much of a amateurish police force, you've got concerns with drugs and violent crime that they just always had a hard time dealing with.

SIGRIST:

Well, as the superintendant, of course, these are very real concerns. You've got visitors to be concerned with and all that.

BRADLEY:

That's true.

SIGRIST:

Your children were born while you were down there?

BRADLEY:

Uh, my daughter Anne- Anne Meredith Bradley was born in California when we were at Sequoya. She is now fourteen years old. She went to a Montessori [ph] school in the virgin Islands, an excellent school. Our son Benjamin Hunter Bradley was born in St. Croy which makes him acrusian. He also went to Montessori [ph] school in the Virgin Islands.

SIGRIST:

And did you live in Park Housing?

BRADLEY:

Yes we did, right.

SIGRIST:

Can you just describe what that is like in the Virgin Islands for me?

BRADLEY:

Yeah. On St. Croy [ph] the park had- when the park was established in the early sixties it acquired a nineteen acre tract on top of a hill. St. Croy is broken up into the old estate names from the sugar cane plantations of the- of the 18 th and 19 th century and this estate was called Sient Farm [ph]. And it sounds rather bucolic but also in the sixties Amerata Hast [ph] installed this huge oil refinery in St. Croy [ph], largely for tax reasons, and our beautiful little hill top side overlooked Amerata Hest's [ph] refinery but except for that it was a nice place.

SIGRIST:

Well, tell me what lured you here from this Eden, physically anyway, why were you attracted to come up?

BRADLEY:

Well, as in any corporation, overseas assignments are wonderful to broaden your horizon but advancement wise you don't want to spend your whole career in the remote locations. I was always attracted to Ellis Island and when this job came open I was very pleased to be able to apply and eventually get the job which would allow me to see Ellis Island opening, as it did, in 1990.

SIGRIST:

May I ask, did you have any family members who had passed through the island coming from Europe?

BRADLEY:

No. Unfortunately I haven't, that's a shame, but they all came earlier. I'm not sure if they came through Castel Clinton or not but they came in the earlier part of the nineteenth century.

SIGRIST:

On both sides of the family?

BRADLEY:

Yes, right.

SIGRIST:

Explain to me the process of applying to the position and was the position listed as an assistant superintendant or what was the picture you were going to?

BRADLEY:

Yeah, uh, I believe it was deputy superintendent. And we'll throw out these titles but a deputy, the difference is, has full alter-ego responsibility of the superintendent in the superintendant's absence. And originally the position was set up in that manner and I applied for it, it was a vacant position. The only notable thing about the application was that the director, then Wing pin Mott [ph], changed the announcement to require living on Liberty Island after it had been announced. So it required occupancy on Liberty Island. They say Kevin Buckley [ph] was the superintendent. Then-regional director Herb Cables [ph] came to the Virgin Islands to interview me for the job and as I say I started here probably in the middle of February 1988.

SIGRIST:

Does anything stick out in your mind about when Herb Cables [ph] came down to interview you?

BRADLEY:

No, I'd met Herb before. Herb is a very aggressive, dynamic New Yorker, really strong New York characteristics. I of course was nervous as in any interview but we had- we met at breakfast in St. Thomas, I flew over there in a sea plane that morning. We had a nice interview, it was probably a good opportunity for Herb to get seats to go to the Virgin Islands in the winter. (Laughs)

SIGRIST:

Tell me about how your wife felt about you applying for this position and what it could mean, potentially, if you got it.

BRADLEY:

That's the good part. My wife looked forward to coming to New York. She's always had an interest in Historic Preservation. She immediately applied for and was admitted to Columbia, to their preservation program where she earned a masters degree. She also immediately got a job with New York City Land Marks Commission and has worked there since were been here. So for my wife its been a good assignment for us.

SIGRIST:

So right from the beginning she was excited about this?

BRADLEY:

Yes, right, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you move first or did you begin work first and then the move came later?

BRADLEY:

Yes, I began work first, the move came later. Again this logistics about the distance and not only from the Virgin Islands but if you may imagine just into the Liberty Island. If you can imagine when you move to Liberty they put your moving truck on a barge, barge it to the island, pick it up by a crane, and then park it on the island. So that's quite a exotic move.

SIGRIST:

We should say for the sake of the tape that on liberty Island are a series of what? 1950's-?

BRADLEY:

That's right.

SIGRIST:

- buildings built exclusively for staff use. Where they not originally?

BRADLEY:

That's correct, correct.

SIGRIST:

So that's where you were going to have to live.

BRADLEY:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

May I ask why this stipulation of this position having to live on Liberty Island?

BRADLEY:

I've hear that Mr. Mott [ph] wanted to have a management presence on the Island, Liberty particularly since it's reopening in 1986 was a very stressed park with a lot of problems and Mr. Mott [ph] tolled Mr. Buckley [ph] he wanted some one to live on the Island that you could put your finger on 24 hours a day.

SIGRIST:

What kinds of problems were they having at Liberty at that time?

BRADLEY:

Liberty was suffering under tremendous visitation. I think it was more then the park intended. When it opened in July of '86 the hours were long, the staff was just literally overwhelmed. They'd come in early, they'd work late. It was very stressful on the staff. The parks infrastructure was very much stressed. Things were continually breaking down, such as elevators, the incinerator. It was really a tough thing to go through. I wasn't here but I've spoken to many people that were and they've really had a hard time.

SIGRIST:

And this was directly after the much hyped restoration of the Statue of Liberty?

BRADLEY:

Exactly.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me- walk me through your first day here and the impressions that you had?

BRADLEY:

Sure.

SIGRIST:

Where did you stay the night before?

BRADLEY:

I foolishly stayed at the Hilton in Newark, I thought it would be easier to come through New Jersey. That was probably a mistake because I got lost in Newark getting to work. But I think it was the first day coming through Liberty State Park and I saw Diana Perdue walking down Freedom Way, the chief of Museum services. Diana I had known on and off for many years and she worked with my wife on some contracts in Alaska and the Mid-West region as well. So I picked up Diana and we drove in and I think I had to park on the other side of the bridge and walk across, as we all did in those days. And I was very cold, particularly coming from the Virgin Islands, a lot of snow. I meet Kevin who was very gracious and welcomed me to the park. I think Diana gave me a tour of the site. Ellis was probably in its construction mode very early on. It was very easy to get lost in the main building in those days, Diana gave me a tour. And our offices were on island two in the old hospital administration building which was kind of a geryriged office building with sheetrock put up. It was kind of crude but it seemed to work. Anyway it was my first day.

SIGRIST:

Where did you eat lunch on your first day?

BRADLEY:

I think we- probably we went to what we called the deli or the roach coach that came into Ellis Island to the construction workers, which had excellent food and it was probably one of the best places to eat in the Island in many years.

SIGRIST:

I should also say for the sake of the tape that, at that time, Ellis Island was under construction and there was a bridge that connected, there still is a bridge that connects Liberty State Park in Jersey City to Ellis Island to facilitate the restoration. A hundred years from now, we might not remember that.

BRADLEY:

No, that's true. The bridge was installed in 1985 and it's been up ever since, your right.

SIGRIST:

What kind of things were you told that first day? I mean, what- was it clear to you exactly what your responsibilities were or was it a sort of fly by the seat of your pants sort of position?

BRADLEY:

Um, I would say the latter, fly by the seat of your pants. I went through a tremendous learning experience. I came in as one who had been running, albeit, small parks to a deputy which is a major difference. A deputy should look at the world through the eyes of his or her boss and I- it took me a while to learn that. I think I had a difficult time realizing what my role was visa-vie the superintendent, how to run the park through his eyes.

SIGRIST:

May I ask how he perceived the park?

BRADLEY:

Kevin Buckley [ph] had previously been the deputy superintendent and I think during the restoration of the Statue then- superintendent Mott [ph] was off doing a myriad of external meetings and programs, Kevin was pretty much running the park. So Kevin knew the park better then anyone else and he was- he had his own way of doing things and he was far and away the most knowledgeable person.

SIGRIST:

And what was his approach to running the park? I mean, was he a very aggressive superintendent or was he more laid back?

BRADLEY:

Very aggressive. Took great personal interest and commitment to the park. Would be the first person in the morning, the last person at night to work. But a very personal, hands on person, you might say a micro manager. He had his way of doing things and that was Kevin.

SIGRIST:

You said your office was on the second floor of the hospital building?

BRADLEY:

Correct.

SIGRIST:

And they had sort of Gerry rigged a restoration in there. Put plaster board up over the cracked walls?

BRADLEY:

Right.

SIGRIST:

What- what- how did that- did you stay in your office the whole time or were you expected to be out, surveying the restoration, being over at Liberty? What as the percentage of office work verses walking around, at first?

BRADLEY:

I don't know, I was given some assignments, such as the budget, early on. I did spend a fair amount of time at liberty. The chief ranger Bill DeHart was in the process of transferring to Cape Canaveral. I spent some time with Bill.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell DeHart?

BRADLEY:

DeHart. D-E- capital H-A-R-T

SIGRIST:

Thank you.

BRADLEY:

Bill and his family were moving- I think his family was in the process of splitting up. His wife was going to the Lincoln Home in Springfield, Illinois. Bill was going to Cape Canaveral in Florida. I spent a lot of time with the staff, sort of gained a feel for things, to be honest. Restoration at Ellis was well underway. It was supervised by- by Michael Aberstine [ph], Richard Wells [ph], and to be honest, my role there was peripheral. I would attend the job meetings but those fellows were pretty much in charge of that process.

SIGRIST:

What about ironing out the kinks on Liberty Island? How involved were you in trying to set that straight?

BRADLEY:

I kind of got- that was a major point. One of the things I inadvertently ended up doing was listing to a lot of people- their problems with each other, the management, the park, the- just the difficulties of the job. I think I lent a friendly ear to a lot of people but I- there were a lot of morale problems in those days. You think we have morale problems today, we certainly had them then.

SIGRIST:

What were some of the common problem that you heard, time and time again, coming from the staff?

BRADLEY:

I think that they were not- again, as I said earlier, it was a very difficult job and I think for people here, its one of the toughest jobs, particularly those dealing with the public of any national park site. Many, many national parks have a down season where, in the winter, there are few if any visitors in the park and you can kind of do things you couldn't do the rest of the year. The Statue of Liberty doesn't enjoy that, it's always a tough operation. And I think the staff felt like they didn't have good managers, the supervisors- they were complaining about not being listened to, um, and just favoritism. Some division chiefs were favorites, others were not. The staff recognized that.

SIGRIST:

So you think that these complaints generally were legitimate at that time?

BRADLEY:

Well the fact that people were unhappy means there was some problem and I'm sure there is- most of these were, if not whole truths, then certainly half truths and there defiantly were problems.

SIGRIST:

Tell me a little bit about the house that you actually stayed in at Liberty. Can you just sort of walk me through the rooms and how you set it up?

BRADLEY:

Yeah. As you mentioned earlier these were built in the early 1950's. My particular house was a red brick, although it was painted white when it was built. A red brick duplex, two stories. By New York standards their not small. To the rest of the world they are small. It was probably 13000 square feet living space. You come into a kitchen, you walk through a very small dining room, a nice size living room. Our particular house faces the south so you look out on the water, the sea walls only ten feet away. You look out on Bayonne, New Jersey, Port Liberte, a housing development. It's small upstairs, three small bedrooms and one bath. Not much storage room, the houses are in fair condition, probably not very well insulated, if at all. A very antiquated heating system that's either too hot or too cold, pipes in those days would freeze pretty frequently. But again, and as you certainly know, many people- it's tough living in New York and that was better then the staff had, most of the staff. The staff that comes here is faced with exorbitant housing costs and long commutes so even though that may be a dumpy little house, it was certainly better then most of my colleges had.

SIGRIST:

How well did your belonging fit into the house?

BRADLEY:

Oh, just very tightly. Everything's there but you cant turn around with out bumping into someone.

SIGRIST:

How many other staff members lived on Liberty Island at that time?

BRADLEY:

At that time, the DeHart's were in the process of leaving. They were in- we have- the size of the house I have, which is a duplex, there is a triplex and a detached family house. The triplex at those days were occupied by Cathy and Bill DeHart and they were in the process of moving out. When they left their house became a seasonal house.

SIGRIST:

Meaning what? What do you mean by seasonal?

BRADLEY:

For temporary park rangers. There was a house in the- I can't remember who was living in it but it became vacant. The middle triplex, that became an office temporarily for the engineer Jean Rodriguez [ph]. Today that's also for seasonal people. The last triplex was Christine Hefner [ph] whose still there although she's now in the process of moving to gateway. The detached home was called the Moppet [ph] house, that was made into offices where the chief of maintenance and eventually myself were, also the grounds crew. Probably three or so years ago or when ever Larry Stealer [ph] transferred here, that became a house, at least on the upstairs for Mr. Stealer [ph]. The other half of my duplex was called the protection house which was where the rangers would have some offices and also storied their equipment.

SIGRIST:

Well were going to take a break so that Peter can flip the tape but when we come back I'm going to ask you about some of the conveniences and incontinences about living on Liberty Island.

BRADLEY:

Sure. END SIDE A, TAPE ONE. BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE.

SIGRIST:

Were now beginning side two with Tom Bradley, the Assistant Superintendent at Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty from 1988 to 1995. Tom, we were talking about living on Liberty Island. And, I'm just curious, tell me about the pros and the cons of living in such a unique place.

BRADLEY:

Well the pros are- its relatively cheap, the rent-

SIGRIST:

How does that work, as a park employee, if you don't mind me asking?

BRADLEY:

Yeah. The park deducts rent from you pay check. I think the rent currently is approximately $500 a month, somewhere in that range, for me. So that's a plus.

SIGRIST:

And that just come right out of your pay check?

BRADLEY:

It does, it does. It's a plus to be so close to so many great places. Manhattan is just a boat ride away. With the bridge to Ellis Island we can park our car at Ellis Island and be very close to New Jersey and all that it offers. It's a plus to have that magnificent skyline at night. It's a plus to be able to safely walk around and leave our door unlocked, probably.

SIGRIST:

Probably?

BRADLEY:

Probably, my hesitation is the threat of terrorism and somebody blowing the place apart but- no, it's nice. I've ridden my bike around the island millions and millions of times and jogged around the Island and climbed the Statue at night. It's marvelous when friends come to visit you, that you can take them into the Statue of Liberty in the evening and they can have it to themselves.

SIGRIST:

In a way you went from one charmed physical environment to another charmed physical environment.

BRADLEY:

Yeah, your right, your right, your right. So, many pluses. The negatives. You live with in close proximity to an incinerator that's running around the clock. Sometimes you get, that's a problem, no matter how well you run that incinerator, your next to an incinerator burning all the trash that Liberty Island generates.

SIGRIST:

Just Liberty, or Liberty and Ellis?

BRADLEY:

Just Liberty. At Ellis we have incinerators as well, plus we have the luxury of carting garbage off when we have too. Your- although the western part of Liberty Island is restricted to the public, it's a very small island. You cant escape the ever present announcements on the dock for the next ferry leaving, um, noises from the Circle Line boats coming and going during the day. I mentioned the concern of terrorism. I think that was evident in the Gulf War when, for what ever reasons, our concerns were so great that I moved my family off the island to Governor's Island for two or three nights just because we were quite concerned that there be some repercussions to the Statue of Liberty. During the World Trade explosion, a couple of nights after that one, the police found in Jersey City where the explosives were being stored and put together. We got a call at midnight from the FBI saying, "Stay away from your windows. We have all these explosives, they are too unstable to move, were going to set them off in Liberty State Park." So a number of the staff went to the Statue of Liberty and stayed in Fort Wood. I was more curious and I watched. They did set the explosives off in Liberty State Park and I'd already moved my kids, their beds, so they're not next to any windows because I was concerned about that. But those kind of things are (laughs) pretty exciting when there's explosives being blown off just across the way at Liberty State Park. So that was always in the back of our mind. You don't have a lot of privacy. At least you have a yard you can use without people seeing you when you unload your groceries once a week-

SIGRIST:

Which come from where?

BRADLEY:

Which you bring over, the stuff over on Liberty, on the boat, Liberty IV. If your lucky, maintenance will meet you with an electric cart and then through thousands of people waiting on the dock goes your loaves of bread and toilet paper to your home and so your really under the public eye.

SIGRIST:

So these charmed environments have their dark sides?

BRADLEY:

Yeah, yeah but it was fun.

SIGRIST:

I'd like to talk a little more about threats to these sites and terrorism because this is- these are very high profile places, Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty, and have certainly had their share of this kind of negative attention. And of course, in your position, you deal with it on a completely different level then, like, we just went home when the World Trade Center blew up and I'd like you to talk a little bit about maybe the first time you came face to face with this and how it has either grown or decreased as time has gone on.

BRADLEY:

Well, my involvement, face to face, was always- it wasn't that threatening. I remember once when Al Sharpton [ph] and a number of followers attempted to take over Liberty Island. This was probably in 1990, and I ended up talking to Al Sharpton [ph] directly and trying- they had set up a number of tents and wanted to shut the Island down. And we had to eventually evacuate the public and call in for reinforcements from the US Park Police and the New York City Police and arrest the whole group and it was all done in a very business like way. I think my role was usually to defuse the situation, at least on our side, and make sure that no untoward action took place from our resources as were trying to contain the situation. I'd seen number of other, uh, more disobedient type actions take place. A group of Cuban-Americans handcuffed themselves in the torch- I'm sorry, in the crown- and a group of Haitians handcuffed themselves on the stairway demonstrating against General Sadrest [ph] in Haiti. Recently, a year ago, we were faced with a group of demonstrating teamsters who, despite what they said, really did come over to take over the Statue of Liberty and we ended up stopping them and talking to them. But those are things you deal with face to face and they're not as bad as you think, although some of our staff would get scared, I've got to be honest, they were threatened by that. But things like terrorism, I mean, your not going to know until it happens. I think in the last few years I've seen them take this a lot more seriously about how were going to protect our visitors and the Statue of Liberty from bombing, for example. We've put a lot of focus on that in the last few years, trying to increase our security and I think we have.

SIGRIST:

Can you- can you elaborate a little more about that? How is the staff and the visitors, how are they safer now then they were, say, in 1990 when the museum opened?

BRADLEY:

The staff has grown, um, I think their more vigilant. They are very vigilant for people carrying packages. Some might argue they're too vigilant but I- it's a tough thing to draw a good balance on. We have been using magnetometers when intelligence dictates that we do, uh, we've taken a lot of internal security measures, particularly at the statue, with alarms and cameras, better locks, better security. That's all taken place in the last few years and it's- and I think that's as it should be. The Statue of Liberty, more so then Ellis, the Statue of Liberty really is an icon in the eyes of the world and needs to be protected.

SIGRIST:

It's interesting that- were talking about two very different kinds of places, the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island, and the staff, you know, you are the Deputy Superintendant of both sites. We sort of lump them together but really they have distinct personalities and distinct concerns, sometimes. I think that the Statue of Liberty tends to be maybe more of a target of terrorism then Ellis Island-

BRADLEY:

Your right, yeah.

SIGRIST:

- to a certain extent. I'd really like to get back to Ellis Island, just quickly. What was your role in the opening of the museum, in September 1990? What are your impressions of that whole- that whole event?

BRADLEY:

Well, with that event, on a personal note, then-Superintendent Buckley [ph] was aware he was going to be promoted and go to Gateway National Recreation Area, so Kevin Buckley [ph] was kind of on the way out at that period. And we didn't know who the new superintendent was going to be, we had an acting superintendent, Myra Harrison [ph], from- from our regional office in Boston. I think we all learned a tremendous amount from Liberty and that was reflected in Ellis. We, for example, we contract out at Ellis Island an tremendous amount of the infrastructure needs- the powerhouse, the utilities systems, the alarm systems, the building maintenance computer. That's all done by contract. Those people were in ahead of time before the Island opened so it was a very seamless opening at Ellis in comparison to Liberty which the Park did entirely in-house and because of the needs to meet that deadline of July 4 th , 1986 the park really wasn't ready. Ellis went so much more smoothly. Also Ellis, uh, all the visitation spiked after it opened at maybe 2 million, it settled at 1.5 million. Given the size of this facility that is a sustainable level and it's working quite well.

SIGRIST:

What are your personal impressions of that opening weekend here at Ellis Island?

BRADLEY:

Well, it was a lot of fan fair and certainly a lot of important people. I remember seeing Justice Scalea [ph] and Vice Presedent Quail [ph]. Uh, I guess those are the two that stick in my mind. Certainly all the Park Service people were here, uh, Secretary Louhan [ph], I believe. But it- I remember running, the first day we opened to the public, being over here at seven thirty and running around helping just clean up, janitorial work, because the, uh, I think that custodial contract, that particular contract hadn't started yet that morning. But things went pretty well, compared to the Statue of Liberty. (Both laugh).

SIGRIST:

Luckily you weren't there.

BRADLEY:

Yeah, right.

SIGRIST:

Tell me a little bit about- about how this site has changed. Now, you've been here seven years, almost to the day, tell me a little bit about what it as like when you came and what it's like now, as you perceive it.

BRADLEY:

I think, when I came, the Statue was- had the legacy of being a relatively- although the Statue of Liberty has always been the Statue of Liberty, it was a relatively small operation. Kind of a "Mom and Pop" operation and you mentioned the houses on Liberty, at one time that house the bulk of the staff, those few little houses. But because of it's attention, because of the tremendous success of the restoration and the fundraising, all of a sudden the park was thrust into being a- just one of the biggest operations in the whole system. And I don't think the park was ready for that and the park management and staff infrastructure wasn't quite up to it and I think that accounts for a lot of the stress. I think what I've seen in the last five years is a growing professionalization of the staff, more people, better people, and were coming to grips with a lot of things that we couldn't come to grips with before. I remember a common complaint when I came here was, "I didn't get paid." I mean, that's pretty basic park function to make sure your people get paid and that was very common, that the people were not getting paid. Travel was messed up, procurement was messed up. Now those things still may happen but they are the exceptions more then the rule. So, I've just seen the park infrastructure has improved tremendously in the last few years.

SIGRIST:

What about your evolvement, from what you were expected to do in February of 1988 to what you expected to do now?

BRADLEY:

Well, being a deputy and an assistant you have to rely a lot on your superintendent a lot for how your life goes and we made a change when Kevin Buckley [ph] left to a new superintendent. Anne Belcove [ph] arrived early 1991 and is as every bit aggressive as Kevin and on top of things but she was obviously new to the site and she relied on me a lot. And Anne has a style is very- at least her inner circle- is quite open as far as delegating responsibility and keeping you involved in things. So that was all personally good for me and I think I really enjoyed that facet of the change. I will say that Anne brought in a second assistant superintendent the following year. Larry Stealer [ph], whom shed worked with before on several assignments and felt comfortable with Larry. She felt she needed more focus on operations and wanted to broaden out her- her immediate support level. And the way Anne works, she's a very dynamic person, and she probably felt that she needed two assistants instead of one so Larry Stealer [ph] came, I believe, in maybe 1991, the fall. And then we reorganized the park slightly with two assistant superintendants instead of one.

SIGRIST:

How- how was that different for you.

BRADLEY:

Well, on one hand it's bad because you lose some reasonability. On the other hand, the areas of the park that I had, I really enjoyed and I had- I still have- administration. concessions, professional services, and safety. But that allowed me to spend a lot more time, for example, with our foundation where I would eventually become the primary liaison with the foundation. The endowments were beginning then, where we would receive a million dollars a year from the foundation and I would administer those. The construction that we are now experiencing in the kitchen and laundry building and the bakery/carpentry were beginning and I was basically the primary point of contact for those and a myriad of other special things that take a lot of time- helicopter over flights at the Statue of Liberty, we have a new energy contract with, uh, we'll be the first in the government to, uh, at lest in the Department of the Interior, tremendous savings to the park, contracts and agreements with New York or New Jersey Historic Preservation. So well on one hand I miss not having the immediate overview of operations and your division, Museum Services, I've enjoyed what I have had and I think it's worked out quite well.

SIGRIST:

We should say for the sake of the tape that the foundation of which you speak is the Statue of Liberty/ Ellis Island Foundation, the private fundraising machine of this museum, if I can call it that.

BRADLEY:

That's true. The foundation has raised for these two islands over four hundred million dollars. I know a lot of it has been soaked up in administration but that's the only way these two islands have been restored. As part of that fundraising the established a 20 million dollar endowment and the park get to spend approximately a million dollars a year, its going to grow eventually, on projects that enhance the visitors experience. A lot of this requires a lot of judgment as to what they'll fund and not fund. Uh, sometimes worthy programs, such as oral histories, encounter rough going where as rehabbing some exhibit will be relatively smooth operation. That's been a real godsend to the park to, um, as a shot in the arm, the funding we get from the endowment.

SIGRIST:

Looking back on your seven years, what, what might you have done differently? What- is there something that you did or some way that you handled a situation that you are critical of?

BRADLEY:

Um, I've learned a lot. I went to a general superintendent's conference, we had one for all the superintendents in the whole National Park Service in 1988 or '89. And the deputy regional director- the deputy director Denny Galvin [ph] said the directors best friend is not his dog but it's his deputy. (Laughs). That kind of put things in perspective and I think having come here as a deputy, I should have had the knowledge to go to the superintendent in a more forthright manner and say exactly how do you see this position functioning, what's my role? And then maybe to swallow your ego fro six months or so and see how that person wants you to work. Eventually, once you gain anyone's trust, you can implement your own agenda but you need to gain that persons trust. And I think I did that eventually with Kevin but I was not a quick study. I should have been quicker on that.

SIGRIST:

What about your proudest moment? What do you think is your greatest accomplishment here at the park?

BRADLEY:

Um, proudest moment was probably an event we had last year, uh, we had a little, relatively small by our standards, exhibit from Rocksprings, Wyoming who has many immigrants who came from Ellis Island that settle at Rocksprings. Uh, we had a relatively small exhibit here but during that exhibit opening Senator Allen Sensor [ph] from Wyoming came, a lot of people from Wyoming. Wyoming is my Alma Mater. It was a really a great evening of good cheer and I really enjoyed that and, um, I enjoy the people here, I've always enjoyed my seven years here, and this has been a very pleasant experience for me. It's hard for me to move to a new site, I felt the same way when I left the Virgin Islands. I've really grown attached to this place and also New York. New York's a special place. It- it's- once you get used to New York and enjoy it, it's gonna be hard to replace.

SIGRIST:

New York is the (overlapping voices, laughter)

BRADLEY:

I know, yeah.

SIGRIST:

What about, um, you mentioned when you first came here that there was a certain amount of disgruntled attitude about the staff. Are there common problematic threads here that have never really been worked out, as you see it?

BRADLEY:

(Sighs). Well, yes, there are and there is still disgruntlement. And how you come to grips with that, (pauses), I- I'm not- I've really had the responsibility for the few divisions I've mentioned and I think you should not adopt an ostrage approach. If you hear there's a problem you shouldn't just sluff it off or say that that person- dismiss that person saying, "He or she is no good." You really need to come to grips with it and talk to the people and see what is bothering them. And this park is in so many operations, people don't feel, don't see the larger mission. They focus on their particular job and if you ask them to do something differently they may feel that they're being taken advantage of. Which means that were not instilling the bigger picture, always. That's probably not just this park, but many parks.

SIGRIST:

If you had come here- just to sort of fantasize for a moment- if you had come here as a superintendent and had been here as a superintendent for seven years and had saw the same kind of evolution going on, what have you had done to make the Statue of Liberty/ Ellis Island a better national park? That maybe hasn't been done under the Buckley [ph] regime or the Belcog [ph] regime or whoever will come after that?

BRADLEY:

Well, I have to be honest that anything I may have done I had discussed with Mr. Buckley [ph] and Ms. Belco [ph] we- I mean, particularly Anne, has always pulled things out of me, she may disagree with me but she listens. Um, I don't know, I think it's a tough operation. You're never- I don't think your ever going to make this park, everybody happy. But I obviously have a different style then those two people and that would probably be reflected in the park but I cant really give an specifics.

SIGRIST:

Yeah, they're sort of unique sites in a way and of course they have very heavy visitation and they are national icons and these are situations that many other national parks don't ever have to deal with.

BRADLEY:

But I think you need to look, look at the successes, look at what people enjoy about this place, for example, under your tutelage the oral history program here has blossomed and you can put your stamp on that. It's very difficult for an interpreter, a ranger that's an interpreter or protection to say that, "I really had an effect on this program." You have to- this is a tough program and if you take protection or interpretation where your serving in the summer twenty thousand visitors a day, I'm not sure how your going to do that.

SIGRIST:

Tell me where your gonna go.

BRADLEY:

I'm going to Cuyahoga Valley National recreation area which is a remarkably similar park, as far as staff and budget, to this park. It's, um, was established in the seventies by Congressman Syberling [ph] who was the main push for that. It's between Cleveland and Akron. It's part of the Western Reserve which means that in the late 1700's it was part of the state of Connecticut. So, it's kind of eerie when your out there to see these kinds of New England town squares and the architecture. But it's a- it's a very- it's not an exciting park to me, it's- but the more I learn about it the more I like. For the first time I'll be able to buy a house in a very nice suburb with the best school district and I can afford it.

SIGRIST:

What was the name of the park, again?

BRADLEY:

Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area.

SIGRIST:

Spell Cuyahoga for me, please?

BRADLEY:

Cuyahoga. C-U-Y-A-H-O-G-A.

SIGRIST:

(?) Tell me what attracted you to this position? I mean, did you feel your time had ended here, or was this offering some sort of wonderful opportunity?

BRADLEY:

It offered a more normal setting. My daughter is a freshman in high school, she goes to school in Manhattan, she's doing quite well but we all think she'll do better in a more settled school setting where we know she can finish school. Historically I tend to move after this period of time and I'd hate to disrupt her- as hard as it is now, it'd be worse next year to move. My wife is doing a book under contract for Oxford University Press on industrial architecture and of all the parks assignments, Cleveland offers a little better site then many. I've gotten good reviews on the superintendent there, John Devo [ph], who's worked in this region. He's a very dynamic person and that will be somewhere to the Statue of Liberty in being more on the cutting edge then the other traditional parks.

SIGRIST:

So your going- it's a lateral move, your going as a (?)?

BRADLEY:

It's a lateral move. I was promoted here actually in December so that becomes lateral. When I applied it was a promotion.

SIGRIST:

And just tell me the logistics of when your leaving and when your first day of work is.

BRADLEY:

Yeah, sure. I'll be starting for work February 28. My family will be moving when ever we can close on a house and get a mover here which will probably be in the middle of April.

SIGRIST:

And, um, tell me what you hope to accomplish there that maybe wasn't possible here, if anything.

BRADLEY:

Well you get away from this ambiguity of two assistant superintendents. There's only one. The superintendent there has been there six years, he may be moving on which would give me a shot at that job. Although I grew up in many places I feel and affinity for the Midwest and I would be happy to make a name for myself in that region and be a superintendent in a Midwestern park.

SIGRIST:

Oh. Well, Tom, you know your much loved here, wither you know it or not and, honestly, people are going to miss you very much. I mean, a lot of people have said as much, maybe not to you butt certainly among themselves. (Both laugh). And, just officially, I want to wish you a lot of luck. I came a year and a half after you did, you've pretty much been here as long as I've been here and I wish you all the luck in the world.

BRADLEY:

Thanks Paul.

SIGRIST:

Thanks for doing the interview.

BRADLEY:

Your very welcome.

SIGRIST:

This is Paul SIGRIST signing off with Tom Bradley on Friday February 10, 1995. Peter Hom [ph] running the electric equipment at the Ellis Island Recording studio.