LEVINE:

Today is June 24 th , 1995. I'm here in the Ellis Island oral history studio with Paul W. Krull, who came from Estonia when he was 14 years of age, just about to turn 15, and came through Ellis Island in 1924 on either the Stockholm or the Goteborg ship. Today Mr. Krull is 86 years of age and I am delighted to be able to interview him because, not only did he come from Estonia, but he also worked at Ellis Island on Island Two for three years after he arrived here. And he also happens to be a very good storyteller. So I think this is going to be a real treat! (Krull laughs) Well, let's start at the beginning. If you'll say your birth date for the tape.

KRULL:

My birthday was 1909, 23 rd of June.

LEVINE:

And where in Estonia were you born?

KRULL:

I was born in Mandjalg. It's a little three-house, Mandjalg is the name for three houses, you know what I mean? It isn't a town. It isn't a village, it's smaller than that. And I was born in little hut with a dirt floor. We had only one table and two chairs, underneath the window. My grandfather was sitting on the log. They cut logs to sit on. That was their seats, in front of the open fireplace and cooking place. That's where he smoked. That's where I was. And if you want me to tell you the...

LEVINE:

What was your grandfather's name? Do you remember?

KRULL:

His last name was Nemm. N-E-M-M. Nemm. But I don't remember. Sofia was my grandmother's name. Sofia Nemm. But my grandfather's name I just can't place it.

LEVINE:

The name of the little hamlet, or village. How would you spell that?

KRULL:

M-, you know in Europe an "a", is "a-r". But when there's two dots on it, it's "aa". Mandjalg. M-A-N-D-J-A-L-G. Mandjalg. Jalg is leg, and Mand is like a pine tree. Mandjalg. And that's where I was born, brought up until I was four years old. My mother was a nurse but like on that island where I came from, there was no jobs. So my mother had to go to capital of Estonia, Tallinn, and get the nursing job over there, while my aunt and my uncle brought me up from four to twelve. When I got four years old, a horse and carriage came and took us from Mandjalg to the Kuressaare. That's the biggest city on the island and that's where we lived. From well, four years old, it was then about 1913. Well, from 1913, that's 12 years. 1921/2, I lived with them. Then my mother came back from Tallinn and married someone that was working for secret police as a secretary or whatever he was there. Because my mother, they got the divorce, my father and mother got the divorce. Very nicely because my mother could not come to America. Because the doctor told her, if you got to America, you're dead before you get there. My mother couldn't even sit in rowboat, she was sick for a couple of days after that. Just everything about it. She couldn't be on a boat.

LEVINE:

So when did your father leave for America?

KRULL:

No. He was a seaman. So he was traveling all around.

LEVINE:

So from the time you were a baby, he was traveling around as a seaman.

KRULL:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. He was traveling. The last time he saw me, or the first time, when I came here in 1924, that's the first time I saw my father. And the last time he saw me was when I was six months old. I told you the story – you want me to tell the story?

LEVINE:

I forget which story. Go ahead.

KRULL:

Well, the police chief came over. His ship was in, it was supposed to leave eleven o'clock so my father was ready to go on the ship. The police chief comes over and says – they knew one another well – he said, Fritz, I'm going to come and arrest you. They found out what you're doing. My father was always doing something good for somebody, you know. Helping them out. So he says, well, I kind of expected it. And he says, you better get out of here. Was eleven o'clock. Go on the ship. No. It was ten o'clock. Go on the ship. Your ship takes off at eleven o'clock. I'll come over here at two o'clock, you're gone. What can I do? You see, what my father did... When White Russia, we were under White Russian there. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, all belonged to White Russia there, you know. And the Communist Party was working already years in Russia, you know. There were a lot of big shots from the Communist Party arrested. And they got out. They asked my father if he would take a couple of people between those boilers – you know what I mean? And take them over to Europe. That's what he did. He hosed them down every couple of hours and gave them food and take them out. But the Russian government found out and they told the chief of police to arrest him. But my father was gone and my father could never go back on account of that. And that's why I didn't see my father until I was 14 years old. I came to Ellis Island there.

LEVINE:

Wow. So your father's name was Fritz?

KRULL:

Fritz, yeah.

LEVINE:

And your mother's name?

KRULL:

Wilhelmina.

LEVINE:

And did you have brothers and sisters?

KRULL:

No. I was the only one in the family. I had uncles but no aunts. And then Nemm, N-E-M-M, was their maiden name on my mother's side. And just didn't have...

LEVINE:

What was your aunt and uncle's name who you lived with for those years?

KRULL:

One was Auguste. My uncle's name was Auguste. And my aunt's husband, I called him uncle too, you know. His name was Auguste too, Auguste Martinson. Martinson. They had a fish store in Koressaare. And then outside they had on a marketplace they had one of those boxes with the scale, you know, that they did outside. Selling fish outside too, you know. So they were fish people. Everybody that was fisherman brought their fish to them to sell in the city.

LEVINE:

Did you ever help with that?

KRULL:

No. I went to school there. When I was there last time, the schoolhouse was gone.

LEVINE:

What do you remember about school there?

KRULL:

I was a bad boy, as per usual. And never was a good boy. And the head of the school, the dean of the school was happy when he heard that I was going to America. His name was Cook – rooster. Rooster. And he was with the violin. You had to sing with him and you know how we loved to sing. But with that bow in his hand, we sang. Because if we didn't sing, it came over your head. There was no such thing as nowadays – don't touch my child. The teachers, they took care of your child. Not here. And of course, it was wintertime there. I was packed and put into a canvas truck that had canvas all around, and I went right across Saaremaa because a ship couldn't come in to Kuressaare where they usually come in because it was frozen solid. But then when we went on the other side, it was still open, and the icebreakers get it open there. We got on the ship and my mother's friend, girlfriend that she used to work with, met me there and took me to her apartment and next afternoon, she took me to the ship that ah, took me to Sweden. See, we came through Sweden.

LEVINE:

Just to back up for a minute Paul. What decided that you would leave Estonia when you did?

KRULL:

Well, my father talked to my mother, rather, wrote to my mother. Why not send Paul here and I'll try to get him good schooling and everything like that. And in Saaremaa there was nothing. There were schools, there was everything, but it was still one of those things, you know? So finally my mother agreed. Because my stepfather wanted me to stay there and take his name – Sede, heart.

LEVINE:

What was his name?

KRULL:

Sede.

LEVINE:

Could you spell it?

KRULL:

When you have "u" with two dots it's an "e". So S-E-D-A, means heart.

LEVINE:

That was his last name.

KRULL:

That's his last name, yeah. He wanted me to take Seda and be his son. But I don't know. I want to see my father and of course – anyway, my mother and father had a very good understanding about everything, you know, so I came over here.

LEVINE:

Before we talk about leaving Estonia, do you remember things that you did for fun when you were growing up?

KRULL:

Oh, yes! You see Estonia's, Kuressaarelin is a funny city, little city, you know. Every house has about an acre of land. Every house. Has about an acre of land, and every house has one or two cows, with a little barn in the back and during the day those cows went on the field. Oh, it's big, miles around that field. But five o'clock, those cows were, we had those things you pull down, you know, and let up again, like you have seen in movies many times, you know, where wartime they call, houses had these things out in front, you know, up and down. We had those there. And five o'clock, the women that took care of that place, opened it up and the cows all came. They all knew where they were going. Where to turn in to their places, where to go into their stalls. And of course afterwards, they milked. My aunt milked the cow, two cows. We took them back again. But next to the water where we swam and had fun. We even made ourselves like a place where we had sticks up, you know, like four walls, you know. And jumps and everything. We used to swim a lot. We used to swim a lot. Very much. Very much. And of course, that'll come later on.

LEVINE:

In the winter did you ice skate or...?

KRULL:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. My mother brought me speed-, you know the kind I had before, wooden ones, with steel in the bottom like that. And then you ice skate. But my mother brought from Tallinn, speed skates. Shoes and skates. I was the champ over there. Nobody could beat me. Well, we had, I think the winter months we cleared a place and there was high school band used to come and play. Oh, it was cold. We had always a barrel full of wood and burning there so that they could fix there musical so it won't freeze, you know. And people were skating all around, all around. Oh, we had, in Estonia we had a very nice time. Something that you don't see here.

LEVINE:

What do you remember fondly about Estonia, about your childhood there?

KRULL:

Well, if you haven't got the mother and father, it's still different. My aunt and my uncle were very nice to me, but I was happy when once or twice a year my mother came on a vacation, you know, and I was very happy then. But seeing everybody else having a father and mother and you haven't got it, that's a certain feeling in you that every once in a while you thought a little bit – you know what I mean? This is what made up my mind to come over here to see my father and to have a father. It was a funny thing. When I had a mother I didn't have a father, and when I had a father, I didn't have a mother. (they laugh) Although my aunt, my cousin was about three four years older than I was. He was very good. He was older so he had more things. He had a sailboat. He had an iceboat with sails on, you know what I mean? And when he went in the army he left everything to me. He says, Paul, you use anything that you want. And a bicycle. German racer. And he says, they're all yours. Use whatever you want. It was very nice that way.

LEVINE:

What was your cousin's name?

KRULL:

Ernie. Ernie Martinson. Ernie is gone now, but I hear that Ernie's two sons are in Canada. In Vancouver someplace. But I have never been able to. There are Estonians in Vancouver and it seems that they don't want to talk about those. I found out why. But it's not my business why. It's their business.

LEVINE:

When you think about Estonia, what do you think was lacking there when you were growing up?

KRULL:

When I was growing up, I was not unlucky. You know my father sent my aunt ten dollars a month – you know what ten dollars a month was? More than a month's pay, a carpenter's pay at that time. 3,800 marks they got a month as a carpenter. But he sent her $10, 4,000 marks. And every once in a while he sent me $5. But of course my aunt took care of it. I was the best-dressed kid. I tell you the truth. They took care of me, very well. Very nicely. I had everything. There was twice a week movie, Saturday night and Sunday night. Saturday was kid's night. Sunday was family night. So we were, I was always, I had everything. I cannot say anything bad about my childhood.

LEVINE:

Can you remember any kind of messages or ideas that either your mother or your aunt or uncle tried to instill in you as a child as far as how you should behave or how you should be in the world?

KRULL:

I'll tell you what? You know who the spoiler was? Who spoiled me? Sofia Nemm, my grandmother. You see she had a fish market and fish place until her daughter took over. My aunt took over. Nobody could say, Paul, why did you do that? My mother, grandmother would say, he didn't do it! She was so good to me. Every day she came home from the fish market, she gave me ten kopeks, Silver. Solid silver kopeks. And I had a bag full like that, because don't forget, five dimes, five a week, three hundred kopeks, I left those silver coins to my mother because she always wanted the silver hand little bag. And cost too much money. But then the silversmith over there says, well, if we had silver coins I could make them. I gave it to my mom and she had it made.

LEVINE:

What did she want? Out of silver?

KRULL:

You know, years ago when you used to go to a dance or a ball, they had silver bags, you know?

LEVINE:

Like a purse?

KRULL:

Purse. Yeah. Silver. Silver. And you had handkerchief or whatever, lipstick in there. And she always wanted one. But expensive. But then we found out that he could melt that silver, dimes, kopeks, and make one and have enough left over to pay him. And that's how my mom got them.

LEVINE:

Can you remember any experiences with your grandmother in particular?

KRULL:

Well, I was a rotten kid. I was very bad. There was a house, two-story house where German and Russian generals and officers used to live when they were there. First the Russian officers, then when the Russians went out, the Germans came. The officers took over there. When they were all gone, that was after the war, I was old enough to know better. I went with the rocks and I broke every window there. Can you imagine that? Doing a think like that? If my son did some thing like that he wouldn't be alive now. But of course, there was a woman that saw who was doing it. And police came. You see, my name is Krull. But I was brought up by Martinson. So that nobody knew who Paul Krull was. They knew Paul Martinson. I was with them. They thought I was one of Martinson's sons. So anyway, they thought that little Martinson. He's a bad boy. I was always bad boy. And they said, Paul Martinson, yeah. So they come over. Can you imagine my grandmother went and paid for all the windows? Had them put in? And of course she says, don't you do that no more. There was no licking. My mother would have killed me if she had been there. But she was in Tullinn. But, she says, don't do that again. Don't. You have learned your lesson. Now don't do that again.

LEVINE:

Why do you suppose you were such a bad boy?

KRULL:

Because of my nature.

LEVINE:

Your nature. (she laughs).

KRULL:

I don't know. Well, you know how kids are sometimes. You know when the Russians, I told you about the Russian officers. They had stalls there. Stables there where their horses were kept. I was always there. I used to, about maybe an eighth of a mile away was the water, where the bay comes in. I used to take the horses, swim them, wash them and everything. And I did the same thing with the German officers. I spoke two languages, German and Russian, perfectly. Now. You can't sell me the Brooklyn Bridge in either language. But I can't put sentences together anymore. I know the words and everything but I can't put the sentences together. Don't forget eighty years. Long time.

LEVINE:

Do you remember anything about either the German or the Russian officers or army people while you were there?

KRULL:

Well, I'll tell you what happened. When the Germans came in, you see, my grandmother Sofia, when she was 18 years old, she was a maid for this Baron Von So and So's wife. She was a maid. Years ago, when they went to a party, they brought their own maid along, who served them. She was, she spoke perfect German, because that Baron Von So and So's wife didn't speak anything but German and she learned German. So when the Germans came in, they went into our stable where the two cows were, into the snow. They took them out and put the officers horses in there. And my grandmother, well, she went out there and she laced into those officers. As soon as they found out that she was perfect German, they gave orders to put those cows back in there and take the horses out. See? And so she was, years ago, when my grandfather, that's about two hundred years ago, I guess, my grandfather had to go and work for the German Baron. They had a section underneath. A section of a certain area. Baron Von So and So, Baron Von So and So over there. Every once a month, he had to go with the horse and the wagon, and give that Baron one day. With the horse and wagon and the man. So, going all around like that, the Baron got every day somebody there. But my grandmother was very, very good woman. And my aunt was a very good woman, but she was a strict one. She was strict with her own son, my cousin. She was strict with me. But I couldn't understand one thing. You know, he and I, my cousin, we were needling always one another. After dinner, when she was washing dishes, of course my uncle was reading the newspaper. And we were supposed to listen. With the time, you couldn't go out anymore. It was cold. But we were needling and pushing one another, and laughing. Then all of a sudden, that hand came. Up to six years ago, I thought he had a six foot hand that he hit both of us the same time. But when I was there five, six years ago, in Estonia, I had the pleasure of going back and seeing all these things. And I think they were the same chairs and tables. The table was only about that long.

LEVINE:

Three feet.

KRULL:

So that four people could eat there. Then I understood how his hand was so long to hit us both the same time. Because we were bad.

LEVINE:

How?

KRULL:

Well, needling and laughing and fooling around when he was reading when we were supposed to listen to him. And that's it.

LEVINE:

When you were getting ready to leave, do you remember saying goodbye to everyone?

KRULL:

Oh, yes. My mother came with me to the bus – it wasn't a bus, it was a truck with a canvas cover. And seats inside. Benches on either side. Like army trucks, you know. And my stepfather came. Maria came. Auguste came. My cousin. I think my cousin was in the Army at that time. And of course tears were shed, and bye-bye. When I got to Tallinn, my mother's girlfriend came and got me. And I slept overnight in her apartment there. Next afternoon, she takes me on an Estonian ship that went to Stockholm, Sweden. Well, as I'm going out the gangplank – of course there's first, second or third class. It's not like here where you can just go anyplace you want to, you know. So I was supposed to sleep on the deck. I didn't have no second or third class ticket, you know. I go up the gangplank and all of a sudden somebody hollers out, Paul! See in Estonia they don't say Paul, they say Paul. (Paol) Paul! I didn't know where that came from. I didn't know where it came from. Hey! Up here! In Estonian of course. See! See! Who the heck is it but Captain Titos. Auguste Titos. He used to go with my mother before my mother got married. And every year, he used to come, he was on a vacation. He was from Saaremaa, where I'm from. And he used to come and visit my mother and that's how I knew him. He called me to come on up here. I went up there and he said, where are you going? I said, to see Papa. In America. Oh, good, good, good. When he found out I was third class, he says, you're going to sleep in my bed tonight. I'm up anyway. You know what I mean. When we got there. I didn't speak Swedish. We, I was supposed to have three other fellows along with me that I knew of there that were coming. And one of the fellows was working Ellis Island here too. Mike Laid. And he says, I'll come with you. The immigration was right there. They weren't going to send me back. He says, they send you out one week too early. Why? You go back and stay in a hotel. The company will pay for it. Well, Auguste Titos the captain said, why send him back to Estonia. Why don't you keep him here in a hotel? It's the same thing what it's over there. Somebody made a mistake, you got to take care of it. So they did. I was there for a week. And then the other three came. So made four of us in one cabin. Two and two, you know. Top bunks and bottom bunks. But oh, I was sick like hell. That North Sea between England and France there. Oh, Jesus. I was sick. So anyway, when we got docked – it took nine days to come here on a ship.

LEVINE:

Who were the other three?

KRULL:

One's name was Mit. One was Nemm, Nemm, Nemm. And the other one was Laid. My uncle was my best man when I got married. The one that came over with me. Ah, Laid worked here on Ellis Island because he brother worked here and got him a job right there.

LEVINE:

Oh, good. We're going to pause right here so we can turn the tape over. And then we'll continue. END SIDE A, TAPE ONE BEGIN SIDE B, TAPE TWO

LEVINE:

So these three people who then you shared the cabin with, you knew them from Estonia.

KRULL:

Oh, yeah. From Estonia I knew them.

LEVINE:

And you expected them.

KRULL:

From Saaremaa, Saaremaa. Oh yes. I knew them and one was my uncle. Nemm. And where do you want to go from there? It's up to you.

LEVINE:

So you stayed in Sweden for a week.

KRULL:

For a week, yes. And then all four of us took a train and went across Sweden to the ship. See, the ship didn't come to Stockholm. It was on the southeast side. Southeast side (quietly) It's like this. Stockholm here. Gothenburg here. So we went straight across and that's where the ship took us across then, yes. And Laid started working here in Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

Well, you four were together then, on the ship, either the Stockholm or the Goteberg. And you were on the ship coming over. You were seasick. Anything else happen on that voyage over here?

KRULL:

Yeah. I don't want to say what happened. You see one evening, I was in the bottom and my uncle was on top. And he said, hey fellows. Come here, come here. Should I say it or not? Well, anyway, I'll try to be as nice as I can be. So we went and we saw. There were two girls – you know we had, you know the problem that we had when we came here? Lice. All Europe was. And your hair, everyplace. So we were put in, we didn't have any. But a lot of people had. But we still put stuff on in order to help not to get anything, you know. So these girls were putting every place that medicine to keep the lice away. And they were without clothes on. So of course, I was the youngest one. The three of them are up there, they wouldn't let me up there. They were 17, 18, 19. So anyway. All of a sudden, all of them screamed and start to rub their eyes. The girls had seen them and thrown their glass of that medicine right into the screen. They're like air ducts you know. Just a screen there between the cabins you know. You're not supposed to look in the next cabin. And they learned their lesson. They, for a day or two, their eyes were smarting. They went to the doctor on the boat. What happened? Ah, something happened, we got this stuff in our eyes. Nobody gave their right... But it was... You know what my father did, you don't believe this. He send me $50 for traveling expenses for candy, whatever. Do you know what $50 was there? My stepfather was getting 6,00 Marks a month. 400 Marks was one dollar. 20,000 Marks I had on me. You figure it out now. 6,000 Marks and police secretary getting a month. And I had 20,000 Marks. So you figure it out. So that of course, I had money left when I was, when I came here. He says, well, didn't you spend anything? I says, well, what? We never had oranges in Estonia. Maybe they have them now there, I don't know. But we didn't. So the only thing I was doing is eating oranges on the ship. Any place I went, oranges.

LEVINE:

Do you remember when the ship came into the New York harbor?

KRULL:

Yes. That was a joke too. We got in Fri-, late Friday afternoon. Almost dark. Ellis Island was closed. We had to stay on the ship Saturday and Sunday. We get out Monday. And of course my father found out. He had connections here, you know. He knew the head of the, this island here. And he knew the head of the second island. So he found out that we were stuck in that such and such pier. So, he came to see us. And somehow these people got together with the radio on the ship, that Paul Krull's father is going to come and see him such and such time. See, if you know somebody, it's always easier now. And to be on the bow of the ship. So the four of us were on the bow of the ship. And one of them was, the fellow that was with my father was that Mike Laid's brother. You know? So there was a colored fellow on a little pontoon, jumping the waves, something there. You know, and painting. Saturday morning. And I did a terrible thing that I shouldn't have done, but I didn't know. We didn't know anything. We didn't know black, green or yellow. We knew that there was niggers in, in America. So I hollered to my father. [Hey Papa! Vat is a nigger ce lull?] What's that nigger doing down there? It wasn't very nice so Pop said to me, please Paul, in Estonian, don't use that word again. Say "moost". Moost is black. So if you want to say anything say, black. But don't mention that word. That's very bad word. I learned. I learned very well. And of course, there wasn't nothing exciting on the boats except you come over here, come to Ellis Island, right here where I am now. And when somebody hollers your name out when you're ready to come through those pipelines there, you know. Then you see your father there and really was something.

LEVINE:

What was it like seeing your father?

KRULL:

Well, wonderful. Because I never knew him. I never saw him before . And then all of a sudden I see my father, when you're fourteen years old. Almost fifteen.

LEVINE:

Did you have any expectations of what he'd be like?

KRULL:

No. I had pictures of him. And he had a mustache. And I recognized him right away from the pictures that I had, that he was my father and it was wonderful.

LEVINE:

He was very happy to have you?

KRULL:

Oh, yes. You know when I got married, and I had Paul – the one that's here now – and her sister, two years younger than he is, he used to come up to the house when I was living up in Pelham Bay, New York, up on Pelham Bay. He used to take care of the kids when we went out. Either socially or dancing, or whatever we did Saturday night. Those two kids were on top of him jumping on him, dunking. So we kind of grab the kids, please leave grandpa alone! Oh, he got mad at us. He says, this is my pleasure. You leave the kids alone. Let us three do what we want to do. You could never do anything wrong with him. Nobody could do anything wrong with him. He was a very big man. Six foot four, two hundred fifty pounds. But he wasn't like me. His weight wasn't here. His weight was all there. He was like this. Like a big gorilla.

LEVINE:

In his chest.

KRULL:

Oh, he was a big man. Kind of wonderful man.

LEVINE:

Well, when you got together with him then, what did you do? You met your father and then what?

KRULL:

Well, I mean, oh, yeah. That's (laughs), that Saturday he says, Paul, Sunday, I'm going to take you over to Mrs. Chemist. Mr. and Mrs. Kimest. They have a daughter and son and I'm going to live with them while I go to school. He had made the school, everything ready for me to go on First Avenue. They lived on 86 th Street, New York. And he says, you go to school. Well, but there was another fellow living with them. They had a railroad apartment. Maybe you don't remember them.

LEVINE:

I had one.

KRULL:

And there was about four rooms, extra rooms. So he had one, the girl, the daughter and son had one and one was empty. That's where I went in. So this man said, why do you want to go to school for? Earn yourself some money then later on, you can go to school. That sounded good. So instead of going to school Monday morning, I went to work with him. I made ten dollars a week. So next weekend, you see, my father worked of course, and stayed, on Ellis Island here. So next weekend, he comes over. Son, how was the school? I says, Papa, I didn't go to school. What!?! Oh. Education in Estonia is very, something that you got to have. But of course, they're just as bad as we are when we have children over here, you know. He says, why? What happened? I says, I went to work with him. How much you getting a week? I says, ten dollars a week. He says, baloney. I'm paying ten dollars a week for them to cook for you and wash your clothes and take care of you and you go to work for ten dollars a week – what's the matter with you? If you want to work, I just got 15 years old in June, 23, if you want to work, you come with me to Ellis Island. Because Mr. Tice – well, he knew very well. And I left with him Sunday afternoon and came to Ellis Island. I stayed in his room. They put another bed in his room and I stayed there. The next morning we went to Mr. Tice and Mr. Tice, we're going to make you 18 years old. You're too young. You can't work here. You're 18 years old. All right. I was 18 years old. First thing they did was put me to work on the second floor in the ward. Where all the patients were. And I had to help the nurses. I had to mop the floors. I had to do everything. I was like a go-fer. But one day the nurse says, Paul, come and hold this man's heel, while I put the medicine in there and everything. And the pus was running in my palm.

LEVINE:

The pus from his wound?

KRULL:

I fainted. I fainted. I was no good there. So then, they had the elevator operator's job open. They were looking for some body to run the elevator. That's when I started to get in trouble. I was in more trouble then than any other time in my life.

LEVINE:

Why was that?

KRULL:

I got Paddy Ross, that was in the picture. What he used to do to me, putting those thumbtacks under the paper, and I used to sit on the paper, you know, if I didn't feel like reading. Then I screamed and jumped up. He did that once too often, Miss Daley, sat on there when there was thumbtacks there.

LEVINE:

Miss Daley was?

KRULL:

She was the head of the pharmacy that sent the boys out, you know, she took all the orders, what the nurses need then the two boys delivered it. And there was nobody around so she had to call somebody. Oh, god, I heard the bottles and glasses crash on the concrete floor. And I got down there, oh! She thought I did it.

LEVINE:

This was a seat in the elevator?

KRULL:

No. No. Outside the, she was sitting outside waiting for me. For the elevator to take her up. And she sat down. That's where the trouble started. Of course my father was called. And I told him, Paddy Ross is doing that to me all the time. They couldn't find Paddy Ross for a couple days, like I told you before. He just took off. He never expected that Miss Daley would sit there.

LEVINE:

So what were the work crews like here, at Ellis Island when you started?

KRULL:

Well, the work crew was carpenters fixing this, painters fixing that. Two men were on a garbage detail with the big wagon, you know what I mean? One was pulling, the other one was pushing, you know. And they collected all the garbage then they brought it over here to the first island and the incinerator. Where they burned everything, you know.

LEVINE:

Where we saw the smokestack.

KRULL:

That's it. That's where it was. I don't know what it is now. But at that time it was the incinerator. And of course, Tito in the office was living there. And there was another fellow living there. There was one very big room downstairs. Four men lived together in there. Four beds were in that room. And then, they lost, the men that used to do the wash for second and third islands – lot of machines you know. Big machines. So Mr. Tice said to my father, maybe Paul likes to take it over. Let Paul try it out. And I liked it. We had a big, big machine. Oh, my god. Two sections. You know those laundry baskets. You could put one on one side and one on the other side so the two baskets could be washed together. And then we had a big dryer. I used to put them in the dryer. But in between there, there was like a big melting pot with steam underneath. Our soap came in some cardboard packages, like. We took the cardboard off and chopped it and put it in that steam so it was liquid, so we could take it with a ladle and put it into the washing machines, you know. And right there next to us were two girls – see they had to do one thing. They had to take the clothes from the dryer and put them in laundry baskets. So I didn't have to do that. And they fed it all into the mangles. And on the other end, other side was two other girls. They were Estonian girls too, who, I don't remember their names any more, who took them, folded them and put them together and put them in laundry baskets again, and wheeled them away, you know. So I was there about a year or so. Until I left the island.

LEVINE:

Meanwhile you were going into town, yes? Even though you lived out here?

KRULL:

On Saturday night the Estonians used to have dances, you know. And I went to the dances. That's where I met my wife. At Estonian dances there. That's where I met all the...

LEVINE:

Where were the Estonian dances?

KRULL:

Hundred and Twenty Fourth Street, between Second and Third Avenue, north side of the Street. They used to call that Ambassador Hall. That was our sports club. That was our, we rented it from them. Every Saturday night, we used to have dances, and it was loaded. That place was loaded for the simple reason. From seven o'clock until nine o'clock, there was no dancing. We had one boxing bout. We had one wrestling match. And the girls did their pyramids.

LEVINE:

The girls what?

KRULL:

Pyramids. You know on top of one another to...

LEVINE:

Pyramids?

KRULL:

Yeah. Yeah. The girls did that.

LEVINE:

I don't understand. What did they make pyramids out of?

KRULL:

Themselves. On top of one another you know. Oh yeah. Sometimes, oh, jesus. They're pretty good.

LEVINE:

So they were like acrobatic.

KRULL:

Acrobatic. Except my wife, she wasn't my wife then, I used to tell her – you don't belong on top there. Your rear end there is too heavy, you should be on the bottom. Then of course, nobody talked to me for a while. But see, there is Ann, as soon as she hears me coming from Key Largo, she's in Hartford, where my son is, where we came from, she knows that her daughter lives there. But she lives in Pelham Bay, New York here. So she goes there because I visit there, like I go around ten, eleven o'clock in the morning. We have known one another since 1926, 7, from Estonian dance. But she never belonged to any group, you know. She was with her sisters, brother-in-law.

LEVINE:

So you knew here from that place up town where you went to the Estonian dances.

KRULL:

Oh, yes. I know all the Estonians. All the Estonians, I know from there. But the new Estonians, had a place in Miami that came, in those three boats. They had on 29 th Street, Hialeah, First Avenue, they had a place. Their own. They built a place, and I even helped them build the place when I went to live there. But then it got to be commercial. And a lot of robberies there and everything, so they had to sell the place. So now the Estonians in Miami haven't got a place to go to.

LEVINE:

What was so wonderful for you, to have these Estonian clubs to go to? Why did you like that so much?

KRULL:

When I was in Ellis Island, I loved to box, to fight. So up in the attic, I put my bags up and everything, and I used to train there and I used to run around the island. And over here, I'm talking about. Around the second island. Inside the second and third island, I used to run. And then somebody told me, he said, why don't you go downtown and there's a gymnasium there. You have everything there. Showers and all. I went there. And somebody that was, he was manager of a couple of fighters. I told him I don't want to be a fighter. I'm not that kind. But I want to be and exercise. And box. And help the fellows out. You see when a fighter gets ready to fight, he's got to have sparring partners. So they used me as a sparring partner. So anyway, I did that for two, three years. We used to, I don't know if Hester Street and Canal and Hester Street and around there, is that the Brooklyn Bridge or Canal Street bridge what's over there? See what gymnasium was the name of that gymnasium. Lot of champions came out of there like Barney Ross and, like I said, Kid Chocolate from Cuba, so on and so forth. And we used to run across Brooklyn Bridge and back again. That's our exercise every day. And then the manager of the soccer team, the one, Oscar Kylet, he was my father's friend. So he says, why don't your son come to Estonian club? I didn't know there was Estonian club. He says, why don't you have Paul come to Estonian sports club. So I went there and I fought a couple of fellows. The biggest laugh I got out of it was, see we used to go to case these different places every Saturday night. Every Saturday night they had boxing. If you had two fights, you had two fights, they put you together to box. If you are the same weight. The winners got the little watch or a ring or something like that. The losers got the fountain pen set. You know, the biggest laugh, they were laughing at me. I had more fountain pen sets than anything else. So that's how I got mixed up with Estonians. And from then on, I knew everybody in this, the Estonians that were here. Well, they had two clubs, three clubs. They had a Workers Club that was a Communist club. Workers was Communist Club, we know. Then they had social club, aristocratic club. Well of course, neither one of them wanted anything to do with... Mr. Aleck, Al Malek, friends of mine, and Cuss Soloni and Betty Soloni, Ann's sister's husband, that I'm going to see now in Hartford, we were always together when we were married. We were always together. We went to Workers Club dances. We went to socials. But it got a little bit on somebody's nerves that one day, somebody from Workers Club – I'll never forget that Baigel. Mirror was his name. Baigel. Came to me.

LEVINE:

Baigel.

KRULL:

Baigel, yeah. Mirror when you look into the mirror, you know. He came over, oh, the society's coming here too! That's all he had to tell me. I was going to mash him. I had him up against the wall. But somebody grabbed my hand and asked to call up the manager of the soccer team. He says, Paul. Not you. Let me do it. But then we went to the social club, and from over there, the Workers are coming too. We didn't give a damn. Wherever we went, we just had a good time. That's all.

LEVINE:

You were saying earlier that most of the workers on Island Two were Estonian.

KRULL:

Yes. Like the four, five girls on the mangles there. One was ironing with the iron. Certain things had to be ironed. And she was... My father was a carpenter. George Tompu was a painter. Paul Merrit and the other fellow's name – they were the garbage collectors on the island. With that truck you know, they pulled behind. That went through it made the biggest noise in the world. Especially when they went on the first floor, you know. We used to go a lot to the basement, or the kitchen, and everything, or the carpenter shop and everything. But then it goes down like this, and comes like this. Each end it wraps down there. You'll see it.

LEVINE:

Okay.

KRULL:

And when they had to go down, but when they had to come up, that thing had steel wheels, it made a racket. A really bad racket. And they collected from both islands. Second and Third Island. Kept it clean and so on and so forth. We ate up on second floor. Three times a day we were there.

LEVINE:

How did you feel about being at Ellis Island?

KRULL:

When I got about 18, 19 years old, when I left Ellis Island, I felt that I was tied down too much. I was too young to be tied down. Then I went, my uncle was a supervisor for [Kelly & Kelsen] Construction Company. I don't know how you spell it. Kelly Kelsen. He was a supervisor and I got the job as a carpenter's helper. And that's how I started in as a carpenter. And that was in 1927. I worked for 1927, 1928. Two years and into '9, when the Crash came. When the Crash came, there was no jobs to be had. No jobs anywhere. Nobody. My wife was making McCall's Magazine. You know what that is? At that time it was on Lexington Avenue and 41 st Street. She was making $15. Secretary. Making $15 a week. I didn't have a job. Daily News was still building on the roof. Construction was going on. But they were bringing people in already. So my buddy, who was the elevator starter over there. He say, Paul, why the heck don't you come work as an elevator operator? Because you get $28 a week, and I'll put you on the express side where they are working. At night, you are going to make overtime. And he did that. So I was making nice money during the Depression when nobody had a job, you know. And I worked there from 1930 to 1941/2. But something happened in between time. There was a Mr. Annenberg who was a circulation director of some... No, that was Max Annenberg, Circulation Director, and this Ivan was Circulation Manager. Max Annenberg comes to me one day, you! Come with me. I says, I'm sorry sir. I knew who he was. I knew he was a big shot. But I made myself stupid. I says, I'm sorry. I can't go anyplace with anybody, unless my elevator starter tells me that I can go. So he said, okay. Let's go and see him. So, sure. We shot the car down. He says, you go over to him, Paul. Later on he told me, whenever he says something, shut the elevator down and call, run! But I didn't know that at the time. So he took me to an office where there was a man behind a big chair, big office, you know. He looked at me, what's your name son? I said, Paul Krull. That time, I talked a little so everything was fine. Well, I went a little bit ahead of myself. I married my wife and da-da-da, and da-da-da and in between the time.

LEVINE:

I'll tell you what. Why don't we pause here and we'll put on another tape and then we'll continue with your story.

KRULL:

Fine. Good. END SIDE B, TAPE ONE BEGIN SIDE A, TAPE TWO

LEVINE:

Okay, this is Tape Two now, and I'm talking with Paul Waldemar?

KRULL:

Waldemar. Don't call me Waldemar please?

LEVINE:

Okay. W. Paul W. Krull.

KRULL:

At a girl.

LEVINE:

Who came here, immigrated here from Estonia, and then worked for his first three years in this country at Ellis Island, where his father was also working. And as it turns out, a lot of the people who were working on Island Two were Estonians. So we were just talking about that. Maybe we could just – I had a question for you. What was it like being around your father then, having not known him before? What was that like for those first years?

KRULL:

It was really an experience for me because I never had a father before. So, to be with the father, you know, he was a heck of a man, because he took me everyplace. You know, I didn't know anything about America, New York, anything. But he took me places. The first two, three years, he took me everyplace. To meet these friends, to go here, to go there. And then of course, when I was getting older and my eyes started to wander to different directions, you know, then we kind of, there was about two, three years between that time and when I got married. But when I got married, he used to come every Saturday, he used to come to the house and we had a couple of children. He used to take care of the children and we could do what we wanted to do over the weekend. Or Saturday night. And wonderful.

LEVINE:

Can you remember any of the things that were like first impressions about this country? Things that struck you right off as being different or unusual?

KRULL:

Well, I'll tell you. First impression was really a sad one for me. Cause I never saw any place. But when we went on the subway and there was colored and white. That was a funny expression because I had to ask questions from my father. What is it? So he explained it to me, what it is. He said, you can't go in there and they can't come in here, because they are black. So this was, for me it was an experience. Because we didn't have black people in Estonia. And to hear something like that, I couldn't understand why can't they go in the same bathroom? This is what I didn't understand, you know. The difference between people. Well, anyway, I got over that. And we go from there.

LEVINE:

How did you meet your wife?

KRULL:

In Estonian club. She went in Estonian club and once of course, athletic type, a little bit, to me, and what happened was that they were trying... Do you remember in Madison Square Garden every year there was that Wanamaker Mile? Races and sports and everything. Jumping and everything. Every year, Wanamaker Mile, that was the most important mile run. Wanamaker Mile. And this George Nor that's on the other end of the soccer team picture. He came to me, he says, Paul, I'm trying to put girls and boys together to go to Wanamaker Mile. Would you want to do that? I says, sure. But I says, I haven't got a girl. He says, we'll take care of it. And that's how I met my wife.

LEVINE:

He paired you up with her?

KRULL:

Yeah. With her. He paired me up with her. Of course we didn't right away, but year or two later, we started to get a little bit serious and 1930 we got married.

LEVINE:

And what was your wife's name?

KRULL:

Well, Sadie Elin Billburg. Her girlfriends called her Sally. She had a Finnish mother and Estonian father. She was born in Manhattan, and all the Finnish people never called her Sadie – Ellie. Her name was Ellie. Where they got that from, I don't know. But a few years ago, when some of them were still alive, Ellie, like my, her cousin, 92 years old in Finnish home, she passed away. But the last couple of years she was so that, when I went there to visit her and my wife was dead already, a few years ago, she say to me, who are you? I says, Paul. Paul who? I says, Ellie's husband. Well, where's Ellie? Why didn't Ellie come? Well, Ellie was dead. I said, well, she had to do something. She'll be here next time. Oh, okay. Make sure that she comes here later. And of course, that's how she got Ellie. The Finns all called her Ellie. But her girlfriends called her Sally, and Sadie was her real name.

LEVINE:

So when you left working at Ellis Island, then where did you go as far as work?

KRULL:

You see, Estonian club had an athletic director, like, and they had one of those apartments, you know what I mean. And he was renting rooms out and I got a room from him. You know, they were very expensive rooms. I paid $3 a week. For a room. And my uncle put me on as a carpenter's helper so it was, yeah. Dollar an hour. Oh, that was a lot of money. Dollar an hour. And I was about 18 at that time. 18, 19. 1929 came the Crash and I went back a little bit now, you know. How I got...

LEVINE:

You were working in the elevator.

KRULL:

Yeah, elevator and went to... Oh, yeah. I think that we stopped where Captain Patterson, he told me, he says, I want you to work for me. I think that we went through that.

LEVINE:

Yeah. That's where we were.

KRULL:

That's about the end of it. I says, Mr. Patterson, I'm working for you now. He says, no. I want you to be my bodyguard. $35 a week. Depression. People were selling apples for a nickel. Carpenters that were getting $62 a week were looking for work $2, $3 a day if they could get it. They couldn't get it. He had Miss Montesseri and John Connolly as their office boy. Montesseri was the secretary. He was the king of Daily News. He was a multi-millionaire. His son had to go to Ossining Public School to learn to get along with people and kids and everything. But what happened was that every weekend, Saturday or Sunday, all his classmates came over and played on the estate. He had a 285-acre estate right next to Sing Sing. 9W to the Hudson River. He had boats there, little sailboats, canoes, rowboats, football field. Soccer field. A swimming pool. The kids, he had about 15 bicycles that they kids wrecked every time they were there. They were fixed up during the week and ready to go next weekend. He was a very wonderful man.

LEVINE:

As his bodyguard, what kinds of things did you do?

KRULL:

It wasn't anything. I had to be alert a little bit, not to let anybody in that office. I was in front of the office in a hallway, right in front of this door there. I had a desk there. We had buttons underneath the desk and if he buzzed me, it was for, he told me before time, why he's going to buzz me. Like if somebody, every morning he had meetings for this, that, you know, for like editors and everything, editors, writers. He said, when I buzz you, if there's somebody waiting, let him in. And he told me who was coming. You know how many times Mayor LaGuardia used to come to see him? Oh, my god. Every week. LaGuardia was there with his hat in his hand. Because Patterson put him in with this newspaper. Oh, he was strong for LaGuardia. He was strong for LaGuardia.

LEVINE:

What do you remember about LaGuardia as a person?

KRULL:

As a person? I have so much to tell you, you haven't got the time. I'll tell you what happened. Just one incident. When you go from Pelham Bay to City Island, there's the woods there. Well, in 1930's you could pull your car on the grass, put the blanket down and have a picnic there. Police were stationed there to see that everything was fine. Well, let me explain something first. He says to me when I was in his office. I says, Mr. Patterson, I can't be your bodyguard. Why not? I'm not a citizen yet. And I can't get a revolver permit. Why aren't you a citizen. I told him, I says, I came, on my papers it says I came to this country twice. Week earlier when I was in Sweden and week later. And they can't figure it out. And they don't give me a revolver permit if I'm not a citizen. He says to Max Annenberg. Go, take him to the station house and get him a revolver permit. And same time, buy him a revolver. Max, right away. We did it. But you know what they wrote on top of the revolver permit? Bodyguard, they didn't write, they typewrite it. Bodyguard to Captain JM Patterson of Daily News syndicate. So I was smart on that one. Whenever I was stopped for some reason, speeding or anything, my license were here, and my revolver permit was here. So when he looks at my license and sees that, bodyguard to JM Patterson, you know how powerful people those newspaper people are? Very powerful at that time. Course gives it to me and says, get the hell out of here. Don't go over 40 miles an hour. So I got away with a lot of things there. Well, anyway, we went, we had a six-month-old baby. This guy. And I had a Chandler car that had shades. So my wife was feeding the baby on the breast, and I pulled the shades down so that she had privacy in the back seat. There was a young policeman there. Came running over. He says, pull those shades up, you're on city property. You cannot pull the shades up, er, down. I says, young man – I was about his own age – and I said, young fella, do you see what she's doing? She's feeding my baby on the breast. And there were three, four fellas running around the car looking in the car. I says, you take care of them, and I'll take care of the shades. Okay! He says, get out of here you guys. I pulled the shades. Two seconds later the boys was running. I was going to take one of them myself. But I didn't want to start anything. And I went and I pulled the shades down again. He came again. He says, I told you to pull those shades up and I'm not going to tell you again. Even if I have to go inside and pull those shades up myself! I says, young man – I don't know. I used to call everybody young man, even though I was their own age! Take a look at what's on the front seat. My shoulder holster with the snub-nosed revolver in it. Oh. Let me see the license. Oh, no. I am gonna pull you in, right now. I'm gonna pull you in to Parkleigh Avenue Station. That's in Pelham Bay there. Well, Parkleigh Avenue station captain was a Jew, [Goldstein], a Jew, Merrits, myself and an Italian fellow, and somebody else. Five of us, every Saturday night we played poker. So his captain played poker with me. Goldstein. I says, let's go. I says, I haven't seen Captain Goldstein for a week now. I'd like to talk to him about certain things that are happening here now. Cause he was having a little nip with wine. He was Italian boy, but he wanted to show off in front of his friends, that were maybe about 75 feet away from us. They was there. I could see him taking a nip of wine, you know. Yeah, I would like to. Let's see what the Doctor says about you nipping wine with those guys. Oh, jesus. And I says, here's my revolver permit. Here's my license, if you want to see my revolver permit. When he saw that on top there, Daily News, bodyguard for Patterson, he almost fainted. So next week, I took his number down. I told my wife to give me a piece of paper and a pencil. I took his number down, stuck it in my wallet. He was nasty. A little bit nasty. He should have realized that there was a woman there, you can make exceptions, you know. So I was a little bit sore. But when LaGuardia came in, what happened was, Patterson said to me, this way, Paul, Mayor LaGuardia's gonna come visit me. If I'm not through with my editors, please give him your seat. See, I had a seat like this. And a desk. So the elevator operator, when Patterson came in, when anybody came to see Patterson, he called me. I knew what was coming, you know. So when Patterson came in, I already knew that Patterson was coming, I told all the cartoonist better start working now. The old man is coming. So he comes in, I see him coming around the corner there. And I got up and I says, Mayor, will you please sit down? Patterson is a little bit busy. Couple minutes. No, no. Sit down Paul. Sit down, it's all right. So I sat down. Do you know how short he was? In order to get his cheek on the desk, he had to jump up. You know when you just sit and you know... And then I told him, you've got the lousiest police department. They have no compassion at all. And I told him the story that happened. So he says, have you got his number? I says, yeah. Give it to me. I says, Mayor, please. What you gonna do. Send him to Staten Island? Send him to Queens? Send him here, there? No. No. No. I think that he's learned his lesson. I laughed. He laughed too, talking about it. But Patterson had [Governor Lehman] used to come to see him. All the movie stars that came. You know Daily News has got that Sunday Career section with the movie star picture on the front. I'm talking back 1930's now. Well, all the movie stars used to, they used to come in like heck to get their picture in. Daily News [front review section] So I had a lot of movie stars that came to see him. I had to bring them up from the studio to his office. L And did you stay at that job until you retired?

KRULL:

No. I left because I was there between 11 or 12 years with him. And sitting there for 11, 12 years, I got heavy. I was going home at nights in the subway, to Pelham Bay we lived. And I kind of blacked out holding on to the strap, you know, because subways were crowded going home, four o'clock. So Dr. Pintura, our doctor in Pelham Bay there, he says, Paul, you got to do something, you got to get away from that job. That job is your killer. Cause you're a young man. And look at, you're overweight. And I advise. So I told Patterson that. Your doctors don't know a goddamn thing. You go and see my doctor on Park Avenue. And he gave me his address and where to go. I went over there. That doctor said the same thing. I says, I don't want a job in Daily News in anything. I just want to go in different line. So I went with a friend of mine what I mentioned, Cassaloni, the contractor. I went to work with him. And do you know in New York there is a lot of those, what do you call those food stores? We used to build them. He got the contract.

LEVINE:

You mean a chain store?

KRULL:

Yeah. A chain, food store.

LEVINE:

A&P?

KRULL:

No. Not A&P.

LEVINE:

Sloane's? D'Agostino? Well, anyway, it was a big supermarket.

KRULL:

Oh, supermarket. And we used to build them. And because I went to school, two years before I got married, until two years after I got married, to Cooper College, here on 14 th Street. Architectural drafting, estimating and blueprints. So I knew the construction. And I was every Sunday, and Saturday, I was working for Casseloni, when he had jobs, partitions going up and down, in offices that you couldn't do during the week. That you had to do over the weekend. So I was working for him making nice money there. So construction was more my line. But do you know where I saw Patterson? Of course they pulled me into Marines. I was 33 years old with three kids and they pulled me in. They told me that I could have gone to work in the Brooklyn Navy Yard or go in the service. Well, I knew what I was gonna do in the bottom of the ships, and I can't. I got phobia. I can't even put a tight jacket on. I have a phobia. Got to open it up. I would have died right down in the bottom of one of the ships, so I says, ah, the hell with it. If I die there, I die in service. They called me in and somebody asked me behind the desk, what branch of service would you like to go in? I says, I would like to go into Army. He takes the stamps and puts it over my paper, when he lifts it, it says Navy. Just the opposite. And I can't put Navy jackets on because they are tight. I don't know what would have happened. Next day we went to be sworn in at Vanderbilt Avenue, 41 st Street. We're looking for volunteers for Marine Corps. And I ducked. I was the tallest one there. I ducked. He said, get up there you. You. Right up here. You, you, you and you. Marine Corps is supposed to be volunteers. Well, anyway, I was in two years, three years. Training over in South Carolina here in boot camp. Then they transferred over to Panama River over in [ ] here in Florida. Merritt Island. Panama River. I did eight months guard duty there for the Navy base. It was a Navy air base. And from there my wife came down with me for eight months, you know, with the kids. And when they send you to Cherry Point, you know you are going overseas. There's no ifs, buts about it. So my wife left back to the farm, father and mother's farm. And I went and we went to California, Camp Pendleton. We were there for about two months. Then they send us, the ships were supposed to take us someplace else but then we came back and they dumped us in Hawaii in Pearl Harbor there. We were there for a couple of months. A couple of good months. And Iwo Jima was going at that time, and they were bringing wounded into Hawaii and the Marines back into Hawaii to fight. One number I remember, 138, two airplane loads, I would have been on there in Iwo Jima. That Estonian Locos, the chaps stopped fighting. Then they took us on transports and took us to Guam. Replacements for Third Division. So we were like Third Division replacements that they lost, you know what I mean? I was there until the war stopped and then I came back. So I didn't see any action.

LEVINE:

Well, we're reaching the end of this part of the tap. Can you say what part of you, you consider Estonian and what part you consider American? If you can divide yourself up that way?

KRULL:

When you are born there, you know that you were born there. But after this 14 when I worked in Ellis Island, that's where I changed into American. Because it was America. Estonia was where I was born and I'll never forget that country. But my life was from 15 years on over here. Everything here. Everything here.

LEVINE:

Do you feel like having been an immigrant to this country a long time ago, do you think that made a difference in your life afterwards?

KRULL:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

LEVINE:

In what way?

KRULL:

I think in a way of life. Over there, to be truthful, Kuressaare, Saaremaa, there really isn't, Kuressaarelin, that city, people live. People make out. But if you want to, if you really want something, you'll have to get away from there. Estonia's Estonia to me. It will always be Estonia. Where I was born, where I was brought up to 14, but see, I don't know their politics. I don't know anything about the Estonians. I was too young. That's when I came here, that's where I started to learn the politics. Went to school over here after that. I mean I went to night school, after I started to work in Ellis Island, in Washington Street, there. There was a school. I went to night school for a couple of years. And then I went to Cooper Union. Cooper College for four years, nights, four or five nights a week. I got my degree and that's about the size of it.

LEVINE:

Would you have any advice to immigrants who are coming here today?

KRULL:

What kind of advice can you give anybody? Like somebody asked me, Paul, I want to come and live in Florida, what do you think? How can I tell them? You know what I tell them? Come over here in January for one month. Then come here in June/July for one month. Make up your own mind. You like it, the heat here, it's nice there in wintertime. If you can stand the summer heat, well, come. But nobody gave me advice here. And it's hard to advise anybody where they should go, what they should do. Do you know how many Estonians went to Canada? I know a lot of them. I know a lot of them because they come here every winter, and back and forth. I have met them through friends of mine, through this, through that. They love it over there. Estonia's their country where they were born, but now they have a car, now they have a car, they have a wife, they have couple of kids. You couldn't afford that car, the home, stuff like that. Wife and the kids you could afford there. You had to work hard. But when you talk about the car and the home and everything, then you think about outside like America or Canada or something like that. It's like I say, you can't advise anybody on that.

LEVINE:

I wanted to say, because you said this when the tape was off. You have three children, two girls and a boy, and you have eight grandchildren and ten great-grandchildren.

KRULL:

That's right. They are beautiful people. Not because they're mine! But they make it beautiful. They make their marriages beautiful. They take care of their children. It's wonderful to see, for me to see them. I've seen so many families, oh, we've had trouble in our families too, a couple of divorces and stuff like that, but when you see people divorce, divorces, divorces, divorces. It makes you feel sorry for somebody. Like I told my son, it takes two to tango, so don't ever play one person. It takes two to tango. You cannot tango alone. If you tango alone you're crazy.

LEVINE:

That's I think a good place to end. I want to thank you so much, for a wonderful interview.

KRULL:

Thank you for inviting me.

LEVINE:

And this has been with Paul Krull, who's here from Key Largo, Florida. This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service, on June 24, and I'm signing off. END INTERVIEW