SIGRIST:

Good morning. This is Paul Sigrist for the National Park Service. Today is Tuesday, August 20 th , 1996. I'm in Deansboro, in upstate New York and I'm here with Mrs. Elizabeth Hinman. Mrs. Hinman came from Wales in 1920. She was twenty-one at that time. Anyway, thank you for letting me come out. Can we begin, Mrs. Hinman, by you giving me your birth date?

HINMAN:

May the 9 th . [chiming in the background]

SIGRIST:

And the year, please.

HINMAN:

When was it? Maybe 1899. I forgot myself.

SIGRIST:

Yes, I have 1899.

HINMAN:

Yeah, that's it.

SIGRIST:

May 9 th , 1899.

HINMAN:

That's right, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me where in Wales you were born?

HINMAN:

Well, I do--- know if you can remember the name: Rhosgadfan, Wales.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell it?

HINMAN:

R-H-O-S-T — no, G-A-F-A-N.

SIGRIST:

Where in Wales is that?

HINMAN:

North Wales.

SIGRIST:

It's in the north of Wales.

HINMAN:

Right almost on the hills above Caernarfon. Most everybody knows that. There's a Caernarfon Castle where all the princes are made, Prince of Wales.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell Caernarvon?

HINMAN:

C-A-R-F-A-N-V-O-N.

SIGRIST:

Thank you.

HINMAN:

V-O-N.

SIGRIST:

Do you know anything about the day you were born? Did anyone ever tell you any stories about the day you were born?

HINMAN:

Yes, my mother told me a story about that. They used to have these little fairs, you know, little country fairs and she always told me I came from the fair. That day of the fair was May the 9 th . [Chuckles]

SIGRIST:

(chuckles) What do you remember about the town itself? When you were a girl growing up, what sticks out in your mind about the town that you grew up in?

HINMAN:

Well, everybody knew everybody, and there was three churches. I went to the Methodist church, Calvinist Methodist. Then there was the two others.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what the denominations were for the other two churches?

HINMAN:

One was the Presbyterian and one was Baptist, I guess. I can't remember what it was.

SIGRIST:

So you had the Calvinist Methodist Church.

HINMAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

The Presbyterian and the — the, did you say Baptist?

HINMAN:

I can be a Baptist. Must be another Presbyterian. I think that's what it was, too.

SIGRIST:

I see.

HINMAN:

But one was way up on the hill, and they just wrote and told me that they've pulled that chur — well, that church has fallen to pieces, and it's a beautiful church, too. With the---

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any other buildings in the town, when you were a girl growing up?

HINMAN:

Well, stores.

SIGRIST:

What kind of stores do you remember?

HINMAN:

Grocery stores. They had everything in, you know. They sold cow feed and everything else.

SIGRIST:

Cow feed?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

Huh.

HINMAN:

Then they set one of them — they set it right near her--- the church was. That one they used to go down to the next village, Rhostryfan and went to the station there and bring home coal. They had a horse and carriage that went to --- a horse and wagon that went and get some of that. They sold coal, too.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell the name of that other village, Rhost — ?

HINMAN:

Well, R-H-O-S-T-R —

SIGRIST:

That's okay. Take your time.

HINMAN:

Oh, yes. T-R-Y, S-O-N, yes, Rhostrofan.

SIGRIST:

And that was the next village down?

HINMAN:

Yeah, the next one. That's where we used to go to high school. We had about five miles to walk to high school. It was all right going down. No, not five miles. Good gracious, about two miles. It was downhill all the way, but coming back it was different.

SIGRIST:

When you were a girl, when you were young, a young girl, what was your favorite place to go in town?

HINMAN:

Well, we had a Band of Hope on a Thursday. That's for the — for children.

SIGRIST:

The Band of Hope?

HINMAN:

Band of Hope they called it. It was a little — in the vestry, back of the church, you know, and they used to recite and sing and do stuff like that every Thursday night. Yeah, that was really about everything entertaining then that we had.

SIGRIST:

Was that for adults as well as children?

HINMAN:

No, just — that was just for children. Adults was the next night. I can't tell you what they did. I don't know.

SIGRIST:

Did you ever have to recite on or perform in some way for the Band of Hope when you were a girl?

HINMAN:

Why, yes, we did. We sang quite a bit there.

SIGRIST:

Did —

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did — can you remember something that you had to do that you could do for us on tape? Recite a poem or sing a song in Welsh?

HINMAN:

No, I can't remember any of that. Then we belong — we belonged to a children's choir from church. I remember going on one day the — why, we walked down on the road and then there was a big hill there where the sheep all were. And this one conduct us. He said, "No." he said, "If you would see a little lamb facing you, we're going to win. But otherwise" — they always said that. "But otherwise," he says, we won't. We did win. The little lamb did look at us. It was so [unclear], but that's what happened. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe for me the house that you lived in when you were a little girl?

HINMAN:

Oh, I can show you the pictures.

SIGRIST:

But you can describe it in words for me?

HINMAN:

Well, my grandparents lived there. I only wish now we knew how many years they were there, because my people lived there for twenty-five years. That's an old, old house. Stone house, you know, white washed and on each side of the front door was flower gardens. One was mine and one was my sister, but today they're gone. They took it out of there.

SIGRIST:

But — but tell me what you remember as a child? Remember the stone house.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Flower gardens on either side. Do you remember what kind of flowers?

HINMAN:

Oh, there was everything. I had one corner that was all lilies. Yeah, and every time we had a dog and my father put a big barrel in the wall and fixed them nice, you know, and then put a flat stone on top so he could sit on top. He couldn't li — they had to be chained or tied up anyways, all the dogs --- on account of the sheep being on the hills. And —

SIGRIST:

Did your family have a dog?

HINMAN:

Oh, you bet we did.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember his name?

HINMAN:

Spot, I think was the name.

SIGRIST:

Is there a story that you remember about your dog?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes. Every time my mother went to the store or anywhere, that dog would cry till she come back. "All the neighbors would know," she said, "I was gone away." And Sunday when we were all gone to church ---every Sunday, that dog would cry till we come home.

SIGRIST:

Do you know what kind of dog it was?

HINMAN:

No, it was just a mongrel.

SIGRIST:

A mongrel.

HINMAN:

Yes, but it was a very nice dog, though. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Getting back to your house, you said it was a stone house.

HINMAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

You said it was white washed. On the outside?

HINMAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

So the stones were white on the outside?

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you have windows?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

What kind of a roof did you have on the house?

HINMAN:

Slate.

SIGRIST:

Slate. Where did the slate come from?

HINMAN:

Well, the quarries right up above the house. There was slate quarries. That's where the men worked and when they come home at night, get through around five o'clock. Talk about women talking, you ought to hear those men talk on the way down. You'd think they'd never seen each other. (laughs)

SIGRIST:

Did your father work in the quarries?

HINMAN:

Not in that one. He worked in another place quite a ways away. He was an engine — engineer, and my brothers worked there with him, too.

SIGRIST:

I see. Well, we'll talk about that in a minute.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How many rooms did your house have?

HINMAN:

Well, it was a kitchen and what they call a milk room --where we used to make butter and stuff -- and then there was the living room and a bedroom downstairs. Then you take a ladder to go upstairs and there was a double bed and a single one up there with a skylight, little skylight in it. You can see this picture. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How did you heat your house? How did you heat the inside of the house?

HINMAN:

You mean the seat?

SIGRIST:

Heat.

HINMAN:

Oh, heat. Oh, coal. Oh, a fireplace.

SIGRIST:

An open fireplace?

HINMAN:

Oh, yeah. It's in the wall, you know, and a stone chimney and once some day the fellow — well, that's a story by itself. There was a fellow and he was used to deliver milk, in a horse and cart like that. He had his son delivered it. But one Sunday, he -- it was a beautiful day and he had his -- all his hay down, and he went and got his hay in on a Sunday. They cut them right out of church because they got the hay in on Sunday. Well, he said he makes a day for himself, he says, "And I got this hay to get in, so I got it in." Then another fellow a little farther up, he set his chimney on fire. That's the way they cleaned them. S-- they cut him out of church. It was very strict. There were Blue Laws.

SIGRIST:

When you say "cut them out of church," what do you mean?

HINMAN:

They wouldn't let them come back to church.

SIGRIST:

Ever?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

So the minister said, "If you don't come on" —

HINMAN:

I don't know if the minister or the deacons in the church. I don't know who done it. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Wow. So you said you'd keep the house warm by an open fireplace.

HINMAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

What did you burn in the fireplace?

HINMAN:

Coal.

SIGRIST:

Coal.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

You told us where you went to get the coal.

HINMAN:

Yeah, soft coal.

SIGRIST:

Soft coal.

HINMAN:

Yeah, different — different people sold coal around there. Then they had the heather. We had a lot of heather hills there. They had all dried heather. We used to go and get it as kids, get a sack, you know, and pull the heather up and set it on the ground and push it in with our feet, and bring it home. [chiming in background] It wasn't heavy. And they started the fire with that. That's what started it. Then take the bellows, you know, when it got good and hot and blow it so the coal would take a hold.

SIGRIST:

So you actually used bellows.

HINMAN:

Oh, yeah.

SIGRIST:

To pump air into it.

HINMAN:

Yeah, there's — I got a little one up here somewhere.

SIGRIST:

Oh, yes, hanging on the wall, you're right.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How did you light the inside of the house?

HINMAN:

Oil lamps.

SIGRIST:

Where did the oil come from?

HINMAN:

The store.

SIGRIST:

So you bought that?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh.

HINMAN:

Oh, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you have a story about dealing with the oil lamps in the house?

HINMAN:

No. Only you had to clean them, you know, every week.

SIGRIST:

Did anything ever happen? Did anything dangerous ever happen with the oil lamps?

HINMAN:

No. Never. No. No, I often wonder today how the kids today would never put up with that. We often wonder how do you read and you sew and did everything with the lamplights.

SIGRIST:

And then had to clean them.

HINMAN:

Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, every week.

SIGRIST:

[Laughs] What kind of floor did you have in the house?

HINMAN:

Tiled floor.

SIGRIST:

And how did you take care of the tile floor?

HINMAN:

Well, go on your hands and knees and mop it. [Chuckles] Yeah. We had to mop it twice on Saturday because we couldn't do it on a Sunday. My brothers, of course, used to go with the rest of 'em Sun-- Saturday evening, you know. One place they used to go in the store in the other village there. They'd -- there were steps to go to it and it was flat where they load the feed and stuff into the wagon, and you could hear them sing right from the house. Of course, later years they got so they went to the city, you know. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe how food was cooked in your house?

HINMAN:

Well, it was cooked on this stove, on this fireplace. Mother used to bake over the fireplace like that and it had a great big oven built right in the wall and on the fire, little fire in under it. She used to bake bread in there and a lot of Sunday dinners would go in there while she came to church --- Sunday mornings, if it wasn't Sunday school. And then the dinner would be ready when we come home.

SIGRIST:

And what kind of food would you eat in Wales at that time?

HINMAN:

Oh, same as they do here.

SIGRIST:

Which is what?

HINMAN:

Sunday, we had roast beef and potatoes and things. And always had a rice pudding. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What about — what about just on a daily basis, what kind of food would you eat during the week?

HINMAN:

Well, my father didn't get home — my father and brothers didn't get home till quarter after six at night and that's when we had our dinner. And it was always boiled dinner, you know, a cooked meal then when they came home. We used to go to school this Rhostrofan here and on the way to school on a Thursday, we would stop to the butcher they call it there, meat market, and ordered liver and pick it up on the way home. And mother would cook that. Fry it till it was crisp and then brown ---made brown gravy with it. It was really, it was good.

SIGRIST:

What was your favorite food as a child? What did you look forward to eating?

HINMAN:

Well, I don't know there was any favorites. I wasn't much of an eater, anyways. I eat dinner and that's about what I like the best of all. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

Is there a piece of furniture that sticks out in your mind when you think about your house in Wales?

HINMAN:

Well, of course, we had them two front windows like this. Not as close together, and then the couch was right under there. In a thunderstorm or anything, mother would call us in and we had to sit on that couch. Close everything but one door. She said, "If lightening comes in," she said, "it can go out through the door." It won't, you know, burn in the house. Yeah. Yes, and my father had his armchair by this oven. Of course, mother had to move it when she cooked, and she baked in there. He had the armchair and she had the rocking chair on the other side, and there were cupboards right there on this side. On that side was a big oven and this side was cupboards up and down. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And what you — in the upstairs you mentioned that there were beds. What kind of beds did you have back them?

HINMAN:

Well, it's only the single bed my father made. It was a nice bed and the other one was — I don't know. Why, it was just an ordinary bed. I can't think.

SIGRIST:

What about the mattresses on the bed, what kind were they?

HINMAN:

Oh, they was always filled with — what they call it? Like — can't think of the name now. Husk they call it.

SIGRIST:

Husk?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Husk.

HINMAN:

Yeah. They filled the -- a mattress with that, you know. Made your own mattress with that. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What was your father's name?

HINMAN:

Evan Morris Roberts. His father's name was Morris, but my mother said that she never saw him but once. He died young. But we used to go and see my grandmother quite often. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

So your father's father died young.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And his — your father's name was Evan, did you say? Even?

HINMAN:

E-V-A-N, yeah.

SIGRIST:

E-V-A-N Morris —

HINMAN:

Roberts.

SIGRIST:

Roberts, which of course is your maiden name.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Roberts. Describe for me in words what your father looked like.

HINMAN:

I'll show you his picture. I can't describe it. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

Well, just try. Just —

HINMAN:

He had a moustache, that's all. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How tall was he?

HINMAN:

No, not very tall. I can't tell you.

SIGRIST:

Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about what his personality was like?

HINMAN:

Oh, he was good. He helped people. Tried to, anyways. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Is there a story that you have about him helping somebody?

HINMAN:

Oh, gosh, he helped so many I can't tell you. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Is there something that he enjoyed doing with his children?

HINMAN:

He didn't have the time. He worked in the quarries, and so he come home late at night, and then during the week he'd be working outdoors. We had a farm. Of course, they didn't have very big farms then, but they were all separated. Each field was separated by stone wall and each one had a different name. And I remember way, way up on the top they called it the "High --- Hugh Field." There was a wall, a stone wall with a hole like that where the water came through off the hill, and he used to capture the rabbits coming off the hill. The hares, they'd call them, coming off the hill in a trap in there and we'd have -- I'd have to go up in the morning before I went to school and see if there was any there. If there was, they'd come home at night, he'd skin it and clean it and then my mother would put it in salt water every night — over night and baked it. It was really good.

SIGRIST:

Hmm. You mentioned that he worked at a — at a different quarry than the quarry that was near where your house was.

HINMAN:

Yeah, what they call this one near us was Alexandria Quarry.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell that please?

HINMAN:

Well, you know what Alexandria. You can spell that.

SIGRIST:

Alexandria, is that what you said?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Oh, like the city in Egypt, Alexandria.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

You said he was an engineer in that quarry.

HINMAN:

He drived the engine. Drive the little engine. They had — the pit was so low there. They had three floors, like a big board, you know, and they dropped it down with the men on it and when they went down the bottom, honest, they looked just like little birds, it was so deep in there. Then they'd put the great big rocks on that to come up and then he'd back the engine with the cars on it, and they'd bring into the sheds where the men cut them up into slates, different shape slates and things. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you know — do you know how your father felt about the work that he did?

HINMAN:

Oh, he liked it. It's all every — there were four --three, three or four of them, I forget which. On a Sunday, each would take a turn --- go and fire the engines ready for Monday morning. And I remember going with --wanted to know if I could go with him when he went. And he said, "Yes." So I went with it and on the way home, my grandmother lived not too far from there, his mother. So we always used to stop and see Grandma.

SIGRIST:

What — what do you remember about his mother?

HINMAN:

Oh, she was a nice person. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What would you do when you visited with her?

HINMAN:

Always took her something. If we had to stop in a little store and buy candy for that. [Laughs] Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What was your mother's name?

HINMAN:

Catherine Roberts. [unclear] Roberts.

SIGRIST:

Her maiden name was Roberts, too?

HINMAN:

Yeah, they all Welsh girls, she said, they all but one married into Roberts. One [unclear] married a Jones. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

And what do you know about your mother's family background?

HINMAN:

Well, we lived almost together there. Her oldest brother lived right in the village and they lost a boy about my age. We went to school together and we — then, if you go to school for three — every — for three years, you'd get a book. You'd go for five years. They'd give you a watch. He and I both got a watch the fifth year and he lied about his age. He worked in a store in Caernarfon and he lied about his age and joined the army. Thought it would be wonderful, you know. He was only sixteen, and my uncle tried to get him out with a birth certificate and all. They wouldn't let him, let him come out. And he got killed in the First World War.

SIGRIST:

This is your mother's brother?

HINMAN:

Yeah, her oldest brother's boy. I felt so bad. I made a poem about it, but it's all in Welsh.

SIGRIST:

Can you say it for us on tape?

HINMAN:

I don't know if I can — [Pause] I've got it somewhere. I can tell it, of course, but I can't think of it. I felt so bad. [clock] Because we used to play together and everything.

SIGRIST:

He would be — he would have been your cousin.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Right. He was the son of your mother's brother.

HINMAN:

That's right.

SIGRIST:

Right.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Tell me, you mentioned the cooking around the house. What other chores did your mother have to do? What — what were her other responsibilities around the house?

HINMAN:

Well, she'd go over some -- and milk the cows. We had two, three cows. Of course, it would be late when they come home. Too late to milk. She'd go to the barn and milk the cows and feed the calves, when the boys wasn't, you know, old enough to do it. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What about in the house, what was she responsible for doing?

HINMAN:

Everything. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how she washed clothes back then?

HINMAN:

Sure, by hand. I've done that myself here.

SIGRIST:

But where? I mean, how did she do it?

HINMAN:

Well, my father went to build a shed on the back of the house, and what they call now these iron kettles. Well, that wasn't that, though. It was bigger, great big tank -- they called it. He bought one in the quarry and they had it bring there, and they put it in the back of this kitchen. He made it purpose for her to wash in, and piped it into the house, and right in the corner he built a fireplace for her. So she could — then we boiled the white clothes, you know, and — and on this side she had a mangle.

SIGRIST:

A mangle?

HINMAN:

Yeah. It was that lo-- wide.

SIGRIST:

It's about two feet long, yeah.

HINMAN:

Hard — hardwood rollers on it. Yeah. Then --of course -- the clothesline was back of the house, my father fixed.

SIGRIST:

Where did the water come from?

HINMAN:

We had a well. Had to carry it in, unless this water was rainwater off the roof -- that came to wash with. But to [not understood] in the house, we had a nice spring outside and when we were home, we had to carry it, you know, a pail full in each hand. Especially on a Saturday. You couldn't even get wa — carry water in on a Sunday. We used to carry it and they had a great big crock there --- fill that right full. It was a nice spring, you know, water. Dry there in the summertime. I always remember --- my grandmother lived with us, my mother's mother. And I always remember her saying, "Oh," she said, "when that water came in, you could hear it going right up the sand, you know, go right up." Well, my father built a stone thing around it and we had it.

SIGRIST:

You said your mother's mother lived with you?

HINMAN:

For a while, yeah.

SIGRIST:

For a while. What do you —

HINMAN:

Till my mother got sick.

SIGRIST:

What do you remember about your mother's mother —

HINMAN:

She was —

SIGRIST:

Living with you?

HINMAN:

She was very nice person. Used to take her by hand and she couldn't see very good. Take her out walking when we were home. I did, in the fields. Yes, I carried hay on my head, believe it or not.

SIGRIST:

Were the children responsible for doing some of the farm work, too?

HINMAN:

They always did.

SIGRIST:

What were your chores, specifically?

HINMAN:

Well, it wasn't anything in particular. Only when we — in the spring of the year, I've told them, the kids here wouldn't do it. We'd go in east of these — each of these fields and rake, like you rake the lawn. Got these little stones into a big pile. Then my father would use the wheelbarrow and take them outside the road. And then I don't know, because I was too little to know whether the town or what sent a man there. He had a hammer with a long handle like that and they had goggles on, I remember, and he sat there and chopped these stones up just with if they were crushed stone. [clock chiming] And then hay time, of course, all the friends and neighbors and the family, everybody came to help, you know, haying it. They had this — they had this long rope with what they call a collar on one end of it.

SIGRIST:

A collar?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh.

HINMAN:

Wooden, you know. And they put the rope on the ground, and they put the hay right on that, as much as they thought you could carry on your head. My mother would give us a short apron around our neck, so the seed wouldn't go down our back. Yeah, that was fun to carry that, you know. Go up the ladder and just throw it in. And my father's brother, he came to help. He just took it off and went. And they had a little cousin down the bottom there watching them and he had a fork. My uncle said, "Take that fork away from a kid before he gets hurt." He didn't get hurt; he stuck it in my foot. [Laughs] I took it away from him and he didn't like it, so I had to run to the house. My mother put salt, salt — butter, salty butter on it, keep the poison out. Well them days, you know, we didn't think anything of work. We were helping. Today kids want to have given to them.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any other like medicinal remedies that your mother would — would put together when you were sick or you hurt yourself? You mentioned putting the salty butter on the wound.

HINMAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Are there are other things that she did to — to take care of the children or themselves health wise? Medicines that she would make or —

HINMAN:

Well, this was what my grandmother told her and it works. It isn't a very nice thing to say, maybe. Take a thimblefull of urine and put it in your ear when you had earache and it always cured it. Yeah. Don't sound good, that.

SIGRIST:

But it works.

HINMAN:

It worked, yes. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

You said your mother got sick. What did she get sick with?

HINMAN:

I forgot what she had. She had a — I couldn't tell you, I was too little. It was around Christmas time, you know, and, of course, we always hung our stockings at the food of the bed, you know, and all we got that Christmas was coal. So my oldest brother says to her, "Well, you know, Jesus Christ, no," he says, and mother was sick, she couldn't go and buy us anything. So we — we were satisfied. So we had coal to keep her warm, he said.

SIGRIST:

Was she sick inside the house?

HINMAN:

In the house, in her bedroom, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how she was taken care of?

HINMAN:

She wasn't sick very long. We all took care of her. Or I didn't, I was little. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How old were you when that happened?

HINMAN:

Oh, you got me. I was going to school, anyways.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

I don't know.

SIGRIST:

Yeah. You mentioned Christmas; can you tell me how you celebrated Christmas in Wales at that time?

HINMAN:

Yeah. We got a orange once a year. There was an old lady that -- that --- a store in her house, you know, on the way to school. And if we got a penny -- mother'd give us a penny sometimes -- and we'd buy candy from her store. Every Christmas she'd give us an orange, and then that would be hanging off our Christmas tree. There was a piece of holly hanging from the ceiling, and this orange would be there with the strings through it, hang it right on — off that tree. [END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1] [BEGIN SIDE B, TAPE 1]

SIGRIST:

And then how, what else would you do at Christmas time?

HINMAN:

Well, church, of course. Well, this was this church down the next village here I told you. That was — of course, everything was stone there. It was a beautiful church. We'd go there and they had singing and all that. So we'd go down there.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any of the Christmas songs in Welsh?

HINMAN:

No. No.

SIGRIST:

Can you still speak some Welsh?

HINMAN:

Oh, sure.

SIGRIST:

I'd love to get you saying something in Welsh on tape. Perhaps do you remember any prayers in Welsh?

HINMAN:

Yes, I do. I always say my prayer in Welsh first, and then in — after that in English.

SIGRIST:

Could you do that for me on tape right now?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Go ahead.

HINMAN:

Oh, you geo me. Can I get started here?

SIGRIST:

That's okay. Take your time. [clock chimes]

HINMAN:

Well, I could say some other thing. [speaks Welsh]

SIGRIST:

And now say it in English.

HINMAN:

Oh, gosh. [pause]

SIGRIST:

Well, that's okay.

HINMAN:

Dear the Lord, the Good Shepherd. Oh, that's as far as I can get there.

SIGRIST:

That's okay. Thank you very much.

HINMAN:

Oh, I know I can say my prayers. What's the matter with me?

SIGRIST:

Well, maybe you're a little nervous.

HINMAN:

Can't remember it in English, now. Oh, gee.

SIGRIST:

Well, that's all right. We'll come back to it later.

HINMAN:

The Lord's Prayer.

SIGRIST:

Can you do that in Welsh?

HINMAN:

Yeah, I was trying to think. You start in — say — start it in English and I can say it.

SIGRIST:

The Lord's Prayer.

HINMAN:

[unclear]

SIGRIST:

Our Father, who art in heaven.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Oh, isn't that terrible. Well, maybe I can say it later.

SIGRIST:

Well, maybe — yeah, maybe we'll come back to it. Let's see. You started talking about school. You said you had to walk a ways to get to school.

HINMAN:

Well, grade school was only about ten minutes from the house, and we'd go home at noon. And then to go to this next village, it took us half hour to walk down there.

SIGRIST:

What do you remember about going to school in Wales? What sticks out in your mind about that experience?

HINMAN:

Well, of course, it was quite a walk down. But the experience with the boys, like a lot of them, about halfway between the two villages they had one great big — they didn't have cars then, you know, and they had this great big iron gate there and then they had a little one. You'd go one side of it. I don't know if ever saw any of them or not. They're just like a little place like that and then this gate, the side here, and you push it to go one way or the other. Well, these tricky fellows would walk ahead of us for home, you know, come home together, you know, and they'd tie that gate together and the other one, you couldn't unlock it anyways. So we'd go over the gate. So they says, "We'll see their pants then." [Laughs] Gee.

SIGRIST:

Nasty boys!

HINMAN:

Yeah. Then there was a man, oh, his mind wasn't right, anyways. Because there was all stone walls and that little gate to go everywhere. They called him Will Low --- they'd call him.

SIGRIST:

Will?

HINMAN:

Low.

SIGRIST:

Will Low.

HINMAN:

I don't know what they meant — what it meant, but anyways and he — they'd bother him, so he'd come right to the gate, you know. And he'd come after if he could, but he couldn't open the gate. Then higher above that, there was a little dog that was a sheepdog. I always used to give him my lunch. I never could eat lunch in school. Well, when then there was a big grade right there and there was an empty house. Well, they always said, "See the spirit in that house." Well, this little dog, they tried have him just 'sick' and (unclear) on us, after we got near him, you know. But I always gave him my lunch, so I — we won on that. (both laugh) My grandmother went to live with my aunt down halfway to Caernarvon. She went there when my mother was sick, and when she died; of course, she had to go horse and wagon. You know, what they call them? Seat on each side.

SIGRIST:

You mean when your grandmother died?

HINMAN:

Yeah, when grandma died, and they said that was the first time they ever saw a hearse going up the hill. They said it was a funeral going up the hill. It was always down. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

That's interesting.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Could your parents read and write?

HINMAN:

Welsh?

SIGRIST:

Anything.

HINMAN:

Well, we always read in Welsh. Yeah, they couldn't understand English.

SIGRIST:

Could — could your mother read and write?

HINMAN:

Sure.

SIGRIST:

She could write, as well?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

But — but they all spoke Welsh at that time.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did anyone speak any English?

HINMAN:

No. No.

SIGRIST:

So you were taught in Welsh at school then?

HINMAN:

Yeah, everything. The only way I went to England to work when I was four — no, not fourteen. Yeah, fourteen years old. That was house--housework. That's all you could get and they liked — they said they liked the Welsh girls for they know-- knew how to work. So I went to work with a friend of my mother's. Their daughter lived in Oldham, England. That's the other side of Manchester, and they wanted another girl to help her. So I went up — I went there to work. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What do you remember about that experience?

HINMAN:

Well, I could understand them talk, but I didn't know how to answer them. I had to learn English that way, but today they learn them English in schools.

SIGRIST:

How did they try to teach you English when you were working in England?

HINMAN:

They didn't try to teach me. I had to learn myself because this girl here, she knew it, so she'd help me. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what some of the first words were that you learned?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

No? Did you have brothers and sisters?

HINMAN:

Yeah, my mother had twelve children, but four died when they're little bit of babies.

SIGRIST:

Your mother — you mean your parents had twelve children.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can — can you — so they had eight that lived then, right?

HINMAN:

What?

SIGRIST:

Eight. So there were eight brothers and sisters that lived?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yes.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you name everybody for me?

HINMAN:

Oh, sure.

SIGRIST:

Go ahead.

HINMAN:

My oldest brother was Owen. The other one was Morris, and Evan, and Howell. He was the youngest.

SIGRIST:

What was his name?

HINMAN:

Howell.

SIGRIST:

Howell.

HINMAN:

Yeah, but the oldest one was Hugh. I forgot about him. He died when he was twenty-eight. He had TB and then there's just the three sisters of us. Kate. We call her Kate — Katherine. Myself and Ellen. I call her Nellie. Yeah, my sister died here in Harding Nursing Home in Waterville. That's why I came over. She lived in Oriskany Falls and she wanted me to come over. My mother was kind of hesitate because — then she said, "Well, she's there all alone," she said, "but promise me one thing," she says, "You'll write." And I used to write every Sunday to them. Of course, she wasn't very good at writing but she worked out on the farm, you know.

SIGRIST:

You said she was in Oriskany Farms?

HINMAN:

Oriskany Falls.

SIGRIST:

Oriskany Falls. That's another town around here.

HINMAN:

Next town. Just above.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you have a — which — which brother or sister were you the closest to when you were growing up?

HINMAN:

Well, we was all working. I don't know if there was any choice, really. I liked them.

SIGRIST:

Liked them all.

HINMAN:

Yes. Yes, sure did.

SIGRIST:

You said your brother, your oldest brother Hugh died of tuberculosis.

HINMAN:

Yes. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Was he living at home when that happened?

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How old were you when that happened?

HINMAN:

Oh, I don't know. He was twenty-eight. I can't remember, but I remember my sister made his things, you know, for the funeral there.

SIGRIST:

I was wondering if you remembered how the family — you know, how you treated the tuberculosis and —

HINMAN:

Well, he liked to go walking everyday and of course he'd like to go up on that hill, and mother used to give him a little lunch, you know. But he said he'd rather come down the hill any day, than he would — no, he'd rather go up the hill than come down because every jar I suppose hurt him. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And — and how did — what do you remember about like when he died and what happened right after that?

HINMAN:

No, I can't remember that. I was too little.

SIGRIST:

You were — you were quite young at that time.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

You mentioned you went over to England when you were fourteen, so that's got to be just before World War I.

HINMAN:

I was there during World War I.

SIGRIST:

You were there. What do you remember about World War I and how it affected you?

HINMAN:

Oh, boy. I'd go to bed around nine o'clock or so and just you can set your clock -- ten o'clock that German plane would come right over. Oh, it was terrible. We had to get up because they'd come around, you know, on a bicycle then with a horn telling to take cover. And then when it was over, they'd come around and says "All clear." But I remember this one time; I'd gone to a big Welsh church. I had to take they call the subway here. They call it underground there. But first I had to walk half an hour to get to this underground.

SIGRIST:

And this is in England, correct? You were in England during the war, right?

HINMAN:

Yeah, in England. Yeah. Then I go by the subway and get that to that church. It was a big church and then coming home. I knew there was an air raid coming because the people were going in there. That's where they went for cover. Then I came out and I had to take a bus from here, from the subway to get the bus. I had to take it from that. [clock chimes] Then I had the half hour walk from there. I'd just shut the door behind when the air raid siren went off. So of course all you could do — the kids next morning would be picking up pieces of shrapnel on their own . I remember one — one night my fellow, the boss there I worked for, she was Welsh. This was another place in England. She was Welsh and he was from Canada and he came to my — no. Yeah, his nephew came there from Canada. He was on leave, but he come there, stayed with them. Didn't want to go all the way to Canada and we were upstairs. We had to make the boss a bed under the dining room table, he was so afraid, and she — and the nephew here and I was upstairs watching in the bedroom window. Then all of a sudden she says, "Go on downstairs. Make some — make us a cup of tea." I'd no more got downstairs than bang. "Well, I said, "There's a dud shell. It would have been, I wouldn't be here." I went out on the ground and the young fellow run down and he says, "Well," he says, "there goes a bum-- a bomb in Aunt Hattie's cabbage patch." Well, he went in the garden next morning to find it and he couldn't find it. She went out to get a head of cabbage that day and accidentally run on it. Great big (not understood). Well, we had to report it and they came here and said, "You're safe," he said, "it was a dud shell." It was a good thing.

SIGRIST:

How did that make you feel, having to live in this kind of environment?

HINMAN:

Well, I don't know. You live with it and then -- just wondering what's going to happen, that's all.

SIGRIST:

Were there any shortages of anything that you remember during that —

HINMAN:

Well, we had to have — there was butter shortage and stuff like that. But this woman I worked for, she had a sister in Wales and she used to send her butter, you know. But they couldn't fool me on butter because my mother always made fresh butter. We had cows. Well, I'd go out one night a week and get out from six -- five until nine o'clock at night. Wednesday nights. I remember that the -- the butter would be all ready next morning. I couldn't eat with them. They ate in one place and you'd wait on them, and I was in the kitchen. Well, this butter was on clean plates and this was mine and that was theirs. They had butter and I had margarine. Little they knew, they were doing the other way around. It was hard, you know, on these plates and I — I changed them. I knew what margarine was and I knew what butter was, so I was eating butter and they was eating margarine. I don't think they ever knew it. [Laugh] Oh, gosh.

SIGRIST:

That's a good story. [Laughs]

HINMAN:

Yeah, my mother always made, you know, butter. I used to make it when we had strikes here. I soaked the — I scalded the washing machines; we used to do instead of throwing the milk away. Put it in there and make butter with it. We made butter and then put it in little crocks with a little bit more salt with it. Put it in crocks, it will keep then.

SIGRIST:

You did that here in this country.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

You mentioned that you had a sister that went to the United States. Was she the first person who went from your family?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Which sister was this?

HINMAN:

My oldest sister, the one —

SIGRIST:

Kate?

HINMAN:

Yeah, the one that died in Harding Nursing Home in Waterville.

SIGRIST:

Right.

HINMAN:

She's the one wanted me to come over here.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what year she came?

HINMAN:

1919.

SIGRIST:

She came in 1919.

HINMAN:

And there was a strike in New York. They took them to Halifax. Yeah, her husband — they'd been going together for eight years in the old country and she -- that's where she come over.

SIGRIST:

Did she come over with her husband, or was he already here?

HINMAN:

No, he was already here.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh.

HINMAN:

He wanted her to come over.

SIGRIST:

What —

HINMAN:

Then —

SIGRIST:

What did you know about America when you lived in Wales?

HINMAN:

Not much of anything.

SIGRIST:

Did you have any ideas of what it must be like over here?

HINMAN:

No, no. I'll tell you one story, though. I had — well, she's a niece, [unclear], and she had a friend in Wales and they was coming to Alberta, Canada.

SIGRIST:

Alberta.

HINMAN:

And she wrote and told her. She said, "Well, you know," she said, "now I can come over some Sunday afternoon and have a cup of tea with you." That's what they thought of it. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

That everything was so close.

HINMAN:

Yeah, just like in the old country, right close together.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember — did your sister write to you?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember the kinds of things she was telling you about this country?

HINMAN:

Well, she used to write to my mother.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Yeah. No, she didn't say much of anything.

SIGRIST:

Well, why did you want to come to the United States?

HINMAN:

Well, she wanted me to. My mother wanted me to come on account she was all alone here. That's why.

SIGRIST:

Oh, I see, so your mother — your mother actually wanted you to come to keep your sister company.

HINMAN:

Yeah, she — well, she wanted me to. My sister did, first. She wrote and wanted me to come.

SIGRIST:

Had your parents ever been to America?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

No.

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Had any of your brothers ever gone?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

No.

HINMAN:

Well, one was — two of them were in the service, but never been here.

SIGRIST:

Well, how did you feel about coming to America? Did you want to go?

HINMAN:

Good. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

You did?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What — what do you remember about the process of getting ready to leave Wales?

HINMAN:

Well, we had trunks them days, you know. We didn't have suitcases. So I had a trunk. Put my things in there, as I came. I came to New York. Of course, I had down there to Oriskany Falls. There's no such place is it. There's Oriskany, but there's no Oriskany Falls. So I was — used to wear my sister's clothes and I used to go out and help my brother-in-law do chores. My little —

SIGRIST:

That was after you got up here.

HINMAN:

Yeah, my little nephew was only nine months old then.

SIGRIST:

Well, let's get you to America first. You said you had a trunk. Do you remember what you packed to take with you?

HINMAN:

Just my clothes and what I thought I'd need, that's all.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what those clothes were?

HINMAN:

Well, I had — I know when I landed I had a — winter, in October. I had a brown, a dark brown heavy coat and a dark brown felt hat. They made me mad. They took chalk and put E. That's where I went, Ellis Island. They put letter E on my shoulder there. I don't know. All they did is looked at me and says, "Okay." Well, they wanted to know where my — where I was going and I told them. So it was all right. I know on the boat there there was an old lady from Italy. She had a great big prag--paper around here and it says, "Not enough money to land." I'll always remember that.

SIGRIST:

Hmm. Did you have to undergo any kind of examinations or anything in Wales before you left?

HINMAN:

Yeah, take shots. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Had you ever been vaccinated before?

HINMAN:

No, only when we were babies, that's all. Then we had somebody on the boat, some young kid on the boat had measles, I think they said. Well, anyways, some of these young girls — I didn't know them and she didn't know, she didn't know them -- from Ireland were coming over and some of the women got very sick on the boat after they give them. These women, these two girls says to me --- they're sisters, "Don't take that," they says. "Go by and put your hand like this," they says, "and they won't have to take it. They think you got it."

SIGRIST:

You're covering where they shot with your hand.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Yeah, you see how it was that your — we went to the doctor first and then the nurse used to give you the shot. Then you used to go by to the nurse. She says, "Put your hand like this and walk by," she said, "and she wouldn't know the better --- difference." She didn't, either.

SIGRIST:

Hmm. Do you remember saying goodbye to your family? Was there some kind of a — a — a little gathering or something?

HINMAN:

No. No, they was just there before I left and then my mother came with me right to the train and the next [unclear], that's where the train came to. But I can see her. There was a curve in the railroad, you know, and she was still waving for me, that's all. Probably saying to herself, "I'll never see her again." But I've been across four times.

SIGRIST:

Where did you go to get on the ship?

HINMAN:

Liverpool, England.

SIGRIST:

Went to Liverpool and so how did you get to Liverpool?

HINMAN:

Well, by train. Then I stayed over night there.

SIGRIST:

Were you traveling alone?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

There was no one else with you?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Your mother went with you to say goodbye.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What about your father, when did you say goodbye to him?

HINMAN:

The night before, before I went to bed. Yeah. He didn't —

SIGRIST:

Did he say anything to you, any kind of —

HINMAN:

No, he didn't like it.

SIGRIST:

He didn't want you to go?

HINMAN:

He didn't want me to come.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Oh, they always said I was my father's girl, anyways. They said coming from church, he and an old -- a fellow who was a bachelor and his -- he lived down the foot of the hill there way beyond us. And he and my father were great friends and they'd be the first one walking from church. I'd run by everybody so I'd be right there with him, and then there was a road. We went this way, like that, and he went this way and went the path over the hill, and his mother kept a little store in the house, you know. [cuckoo clock] And he says to me, "Would you like to come over and a cup of -- have tea with me?" And my father would say — I'd check with my father, he said, "Sure you can go." So I went with him to have a cup of tea with him in the afternoon after church, you know. In the afternoon. Then he said, "Do you want to see my sheep?" and I said, "Sure, oh come on now." There was no sheep on that side hill. How was he going to tell me -- show them to me? He whistled and those sheep came right up over the hill. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

When you got to Liverpool, how long did you have to stay before you got on the ship?

HINMAN:

Just the night and went on the next day.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember the name of the ship?

HINMAN:

Carmania.

SIGRIST:

Came on the Carmania.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh, and I'll just write that down. And did you go right onto the ship? How did you get onto the ship itself?

HINMAN:

Oh, we walked onto it.

SIGRIST:

You walked onto it. What did you think when you saw this ship that you were going to be getting on?

HINMAN:

Didn't think much of it.

SIGRIST:

Had you ever been on a ship before?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Well, actually, how did — well, right, because you were in England, but you probably just went by train to get to where you needed to go.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Well, can you describe for me where you slept on the ship?

HINMAN:

Well, we slept and you can hear, it's just little bunks up and down, you know. I was on the top one, I guess. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How many people were in the room?

HINMAN:

Four.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember anything about those other people?

HINMAN:

No, only I had put — I went in first I guess and I put my clothes for the night, you know, a little handbag I had on the lower one, and those were threw up about. You said, "You got in my place." She was mad. She was.

SIGRIST:

What — what else sticks out in your mind about being on the ship? What did you do while you were on the ship?

HINMAN:

Oh, there was plenty to do on there. We could — they had — they had tea, you know, ten o'clock every morning if you wanted it. And all you did it's just -- there wasn't much else to do then.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how long it took to get to the United States?

HINMAN:

Yeah, by boat, four days I think then.

SIGRIST:

And you're traveling in October?

HINMAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

It's October of 1920.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Uh-huh.

SIGRIST:

And was — was it — what kind of a voyage was it? Was it a rough voyage or a smooth voyage?

HINMAN:

No, it was kind of good. Of course, I said I've been over twice. He went over with me in '53, the first time.

SIGRIST:

Well, let's talk about the trip in 1920.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

It was a smooth voyage that — that you were on. Do you remember where you were fed on the ship?

HINMAN:

Well, I told you, on meals. To go meals, two meals. Some I think — some is eight, some is nine, I think. We always went on the early one.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what it looked like where you were fed?

HINMAN:

Just like a big dining room?

SIGRIST:

Did you see anything on the ship that you had never seen before?

HINMAN:

Well, all we -- all we could see was just land and sea. When you're in the middle, you couldn't see nothing else. I mean land — yeah, land and sea, the sky and the sea, that's all. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you have any interaction with any of the staff on the ship?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

No?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

The captain or the purser or anything like that?

HINMAN:

No, not when I came over first time. It was — after that, we flew over.

SIGRIST:

Where did you — you mentioned that you saw an Italian woman that had a sign on her. Was that on this trip in 1920?

HINMAN:

Yeah, in — in New York when we came off the ship.

SIGRIST:

Which — which class were you traveling on the Carmania?

HINMAN:

Third.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how much it cost in 1920?

HINMAN:

No, I got my — I got my passport, but I couldn't tell you.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember who paid for the trip in1920?

HINMAN:

I had to pay for it, but my sister paid me back when I came. Yeah. [clock chimes]

SIGRIST:

How did you — how did you get enough money for the passage?

HINMAN:

Oh, I'd been working and with help, too. She helped me, too.

SIGRIST:

Who helped you?

HINMAN:

My sister.

SIGRIST:

Your sister.

HINMAN:

Yeah. No, she sent me money to come over, that was it. She's — my sister sent me the money to come over. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

I see. Just wait for the clock (laughs) to stop.

HINMAN:

Oh, that's right. (clock continues chiming)

SIGRIST:

Ah. [Laughs] I never did say, for the sake of the tape, that there are various clocks in the room and they're — they're going off.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

So you said that the — the trip across just took a few days. You said or four days.

HINMAN:

I think it was four days.

SIGRIST:

Four days. Do you remember seeing the Statue of Liberty when you —

HINMAN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

Did you know what that was?

HINMAN:

Well, we'd heard about it in school, you know, all that. Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And tell me what happened when the ship docked? Where did you go? When the ship landed?

HINMAN:

Well, I had to wait for my sister to come pick me up. No, she picked me up. Oh, they put us on a boat to go to Ellis Island.

SIGRIST:

And tell me what happened at Ellis Island. You already mentioned they put an E on your brown coat.

HINMAN:

Well, it was night so I couldn't — that's all they did to me. They didn't ask no questions or nothing. I think all they put the E on for because I wore glasses, that's all. That's all I could think of. I don't know what else. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what it looked like or —

HINMAN:

No, it was dark. We never got the [not understood] till one o'clock in the morning.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how long you were at Ellis Island?

HINMAN:

Well, it looked like two hours waiting for them to call my sister in and all, and I thought they'd never call her in to get me.

SIGRIST:

You wouldn't like to tell the Ellis Island story you told me before, would you?

HINMAN:

No. No! (laughs)

SIGRIST:

(laughs) All right. I thought I'd ask.

HINMAN:

Oh, boy, no.

SIGRIST:

Is there anything else you remember? Did you have to be examined at Ellis Island?

HINMAN:

No, all they did was just looked at me and that was it. I looked good enough to pass, I guess. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

You thought that they may have put you aside because of your eyeglasses.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember them testing your eyes or?

HINMAN:

No, not a thing.

SIGRIST:

No?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Did they — did you have your luggage with you when you went through?

HINMAN:

No, not to Ellis Island. It was in New York.

SIGRIST:

And — and did — where did you meet your sister, finally? Where did she come?

HINMAN:

New Yor--- Ellis Island.

SIGRIST:

She came to Ellis Island.

HINMAN:

Yeah, but---

SIGRIST:

Tell —

HINMAN:

She had come to New York and then they let her in there. I was waiting for her inside. She was waiting for me on the outside somewhere in there, some room probably.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what it was like to see your sister?

HINMAN:

Oh, it was worth seeing her. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How long had it been since you had seen her last?

HINMAN:

Oh, just a year. She came in 1919.

SIGRIST:

That's right, you said that. Just been a year.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did she look different to you in any way?

HINMAN:

No, not at all. No.

SIGRIST:

No?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Where did you go with your sister when you left Ellis Island?

HINMAN:

Well, we came by train to Utica and I had an aunt living in Deerfield, and she had told my sister, be sure when we land in Utica to come there, to the house. But we thought one o'clock in the morning is an ungodly hour to go any place, so we didn't go there. So I says --- I laid on the couch there in the station until I got fed up around, so I got up and oh, boy, there were big things under the pillows.

SIGRIST:

[unclear]

HINMAN:

Yes, so we sat — sat up till about, oh, it was five, a little after five. And they had stayed up waiting for us. But my cousin he worked for Hooks Company then in Uti — yeah, in Utica. So he took us h — took us home before he went to work. We landed in Oriskan ---- there's a funny thing. A red barn up here is the only thing I remember on this whole road when we first came. Never thought I'd be here with it. And —

SIGRIST:

Well, let's — let's just stop for a second and I'll put another tape in the machine we'll just talk for a few more minutes and get you into America. So hang on just a second. [END OF SIDE B, TAPE 1 [BEGIN SIDE A, TAPE 2]

SIGRIST:

Okay, we're now beginning Tape 2 with Elizabeth Hinman.

HINMAN:

Oh, my gosh.

SIGRIST:

Who came from Wales in 1920 when she was twenty-one. You arrived — you arrived up here in the middle of the night. Up to this area.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

The [not understood] in the middle of the night. Your cousins were — had stayed up waiting for you.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

But tell me again where you went that night. Where did you go? To your cousin — to your sister's house?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes, they were — this cousin from Utica brought us and we told him to leave us---- there was a Methodist church at the foot of the hill, and she lived right up on the farm there. So he dropped us off the foot of the hill, and we got up on the farm. My brother-in-law was just getting ready to go to the barn in the morning to milk at six o'clock in the morning. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe your sister's house for me, what it looked like?

HINMAN:

Oh, it's a big house. We didn't use the upstairs; there were so many rooms there.

SIGRIST:

Was it a farm?

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And were — were your sister and her husband, were they farmers? Did they —

HINMAN:

Oh, they worked this farm for a Mr. Davis. He used to run a jewelry store in Oriskany Falls. They run the farm for him. Then they bought a farm, besides that. After that.

SIGRIST:

How long did you stay with your sister?

HINMAN:

Well, I was in this country a little over a year before I got married. That's how long I stayed with her.

SIGRIST:

Did you get a job or did you just — did you work on the farm? How did you support yourself during that year?

HINMAN:

Well, I'd never worked in a mill and there are all mills around, you know, and I never worked in a mill. I didn't know what it was. So I thought instead of housework, I thought I'd go and — go in the mill and work up at the falls. So the doctor says to me, he says, "You're staying at Mill and Dye [ph]," he says, "oh, get out and live." So I didn't work there only three months.

SIGRIST:

Well, how did you go about getting the job in the mill?

HINMAN:

Oh, the neighbor, next door neighbor to my sister there, he was a boss there. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And do you remember your first day at the mill?

HINMAN:

Oh, yeah, I worked for one of these girls. There were two girls who never married who lived just down below us. And she, the youngest [not understood], worked there and I worked with her. All I did — they made sweaters and all I did was where they come to a V-neck, I just sewed right there. But the doctor says I couldn't stand it inside.

SIGRIST:

Well, how — how were you getting sick? What — how did it —

HINMAN:

I wasn't getting sick. I don't know what he — what he found out. He didn't never told me. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Were there other Welsh people working in the mill?

HINMAN:

No. No Welsh.

SIGRIST:

Were there other immigrants working in the mill?

HINMAN:

I don't know. They were just from the Falls, you know, most of them.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how much you got paid for that job?

HINMAN:

Uh-hmm. Five dollars a week, I guess.

SIGRIST:

And what did you do with your money?

HINMAN:

Well, I kept it and then my sister wouldn't take anything. I took care — she had a little boy nine months old then, so I used to take care of him when she went to the barn. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How did — how did you feel about not being in Wales?

HINMAN:

Oh, just missed friends, that's all. There were -- goes all our friends. We were scattered all over there, you know, working.

SIGRIST:

Were you writing to your parents?

HINMAN:

Oh, yeah — yes, every Sunday. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And what kinds of things were you telling them about your life at that time?

HINMAN:

Well, we just told how we were getting along here, that's all. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did — you spoke English at that point from learning English in England?

HINMAN:

I didn't learn any — well, yes. Just — yeah, I could speak it, but not too good, you know.

SIGRIST:

Did you — did you try to learn English better once you got here?

HINMAN:

No, I just listened to people and worked at it.

SIGRIST:

What about your sister, did she speak English?

HINMAN:

Well, she must have, to get along here. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

But I mean, do you remember? Like, when you talked to your sister, what did you — what language did you use?

HINMAN:

Oh, always in Welsh.

SIGRIST:

Always in Welsh.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Was — can you talk a little bit about the Welsh community that was up here?

HINMAN:

Well, they used to come up Sundays and my sister, they had an organ and my brother-in-law used to play the organ. And that's what you'd get when they came and visit. We'd play and sing the whole time. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me how you met your husband to be?

HINMAN:

You want to know that?

SIGRIST:

Yes.

HINMAN:

Well, I told you I worked in the barn. I helped my brother-in-law and he used to go around and buy calves, selling calves and ship them to New York.

SIGRIST:

Calves like baby cows.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Calves.

HINMAN:

And I happened to be in the barn that day and he says to my brother-in-law, "You have to go to Wales," he says, "to get help, do you?" Oh, they just laughed about it, you know. "Oh, yes, we got to hurry," he said. He said, "My wife and her, she got to go Soisville," a little village up above, "to see these people-- Welsh people," he said. So, oh,yes---"They're going by train, so they got to catch a train." "Oh," he says, "I'm going that way." Whether he was or not. Anyways, he took us and he used to come there quite often buying calves and he finally asked me for a date. [Laughs] Oh, gee.

SIGRIST:

And what — what were you attracted to? What — what — what made you want to go out on the date with him?

HINMAN:

Just wanted to go out and see what was going on, I guess. I don't know what else.

SIGRIST:

What was his name?

HINMAN:

Harold Hinman.

SIGRIST:

Harold Hinman.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And —

HINMAN:

They lived in Deansboro. They had a big — lot of farms.

SIGRIST:

Was he Welsh?

HINMAN:

No, no. No.

SIGRIST:

Do — what was his background?

HINMAN:

Farmer.

SIGRIST:

What about nationality or —

HINMAN:

Well, I don't know. I guess they were English. Yeah, they were English. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And do you remember what — what date you got married?

HINMAN:

November the 3 rd .

SIGRIST:

Year? What year?

HINMAN:

That was '21. No.

SIGRIST:

November the 3 rd , 1921.

HINMAN:

'22 we got married.

SIGRIST:

1922.

HINMAN:

Uh-hmm.

SIGRIST:

November the 3 rd , 1922.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Went to New York for our honeymoon.

SIGRIST:

Did you get married up here, though?

HINMAN:

In Deansboro.

SIGRIST:

In Deansboro.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me a little bit about the wedding?

HINMAN:

Well, we were married by the minister down here -- and that's how -- and somebody got clue of it, I guess. And they blocked — blocked the driveway to go in -- and my brother-in-law took us up there in a little Essex car. "Well," he says, "that won't stop us." He says, "I can go on the sidewalk." [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what you wore?

HINMAN:

Oh, it was a blue — blue gown with all beaded in the front here. A long gown.

SIGRIST:

And did — did your sister and brother-in-law attend?

HINMAN:

No, nobody.

SIGRIST:

Nobody.

HINMAN:

Just —

SIGRIST:

Just the minister.

HINMAN:

Just the minister and my in-laws, my brother and sister-in-law. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

I see. Did — did your sister give you a wedding present?

HINMAN:

Oh, she gave me so darn many I couldn't tell you. [Laughs] Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you have children?

HINMAN:

Yes, I had —

SIGRIST:

Can you name them for me?

HINMAN:

Yeah, the oldest was Leona. She was a twin, but I lost her twin at thirteen day — eighteen days old. And then there was Alton.

SIGRIST:

Alton your son, who's here today.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Yeah. And Adelbert.

SIGRIST:

Albert.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Adelbert, they call him. He's name after his father Harold, Harold, Junior.

SIGRIST:

Leona, Alton.

HINMAN:

Yeah. Harold.

SIGRIST:

Harold, Junior.

HINMAN:

Yeah, I think that's all. [Laughs]

SIGRIST:

That's three. [Laughs]

HINMAN:

Yeah, that's what I had. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you become a citizen?

HINMAN:

By marriage.

SIGRIST:

By marriage.

HINMAN:

That was the last time by married. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh. What about your sister, did she become a citizen?

HINMAN:

Oh, yes. I guess she did -- she must have. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did your mother and father ever come —

HINMAN:

Oh, no.

SIGRIST:

To the United States?

HINMAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

What was the first time you went back to Wales? [clock chimes]

HINMAN:

1953.

SIGRIST:

So you had been here for thirty years, more than thirty years.

HINMAN:

My mother had died. She had cancer. My father wanted to come back with me, but he was eighty-nine.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me if Wales looked any different to you when you went back in 1953?

HINMAN:

Oh, a lot of changes, like everywhere else. In London, there where they bombed so hard, you know. There was a subway, they said, and they had bombed the front of the subway. And they said the people were in there, either they would have been drowned or they would have been smothered. They could never try because the rocks and everything falling in. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

So you went over to London, also, while you were visiting?

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How did you feel about being in Wales? How did it make you feel to be where you grew up?

HINMAN:

Well, everything was changed, like the way it is here. It wasn't the same. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

But how did that make you feel?

HINMAN:

Oh, I feel kind of funny, in a way. No family there, you know. They was gone all but nieces. Oh, no, I had one — two brothers living then. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

When you think about yourself, do you think of yourself as being Welsh or as being American? How do you think of yourself?

HINMAN:

I'm still Welsh. Born over there. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Well, before we end, do — do you want to try do the Lord's Prayer again in Welsh? Do you think you can remember it, or some prayer?

HINMAN:

Oh, isn't that awful.

SIGRIST:

Or a song? Do you have a little song you could sing for us?

HINMAN:

No, I couldn't sing. I've lost my voice.

SIGRIST:

Singing is so important to Welsh people.

HINMAN:

I know it.

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

HINMAN:

Isn't that funny, and I say it every night, too.

SIGRIST:

Well, tonight it will come back to you when you're —

HINMAN:

It's terrible.

SIGRIST:

Well, that's okay. That's all right. Well, good. Do you have anything else you'd like to say before we end?

HINMAN:

I don't think so.

SIGRIST:

Okay. This is Paul Sigrist signing off with Elizabeth Hinman. Today is Tuesday, August 20 th , 1996 and I'm in Deansboro, New York. Thank you very much.

HINMAN:

Yeah. [END OF INTERVIEW]