LEVINE:

Okay. Today is September 10, 1997. And I'm here in New York City with Marianna Proto, who was born Marianna de Modica. She was born in Vittoria, Sicily in 1923, and came to this country at three months of age. Today at the time of this interview, Mrs. Proto is seventy-four years of age, and this is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. Okay. If you would start by saying your birthday.

PROTO:

Uh, 1/21/23.

LEVINE:

Okay. And do you, you, of course, wouldn't have memories of Sicily, or even coming here.

PROTO:

No, not at that time. ( she laughs )

LEVINE:

But do you recall anything that your mother or any other family members said about it?

PROTO:

Oh, yes.

LEVINE:

What, what do you remember? Um, do you remember about what they said about life in Vittoria?

PROTO:

Well, my mother came from, not a poor family, from a landed family. And, uh, she was a dressmaking teacher.

LEVINE:

Oh.

PROTO:

Yes. And, uh, she came to this country because my father wanted to come back. He had, uh, he had come to this country at about, in about 1913, and gone back to visit, uh, in, uh, 1920, and there he married my mother and, uh, in 1923 they came back because he had this wanderlust. He wanted to come back.

LEVINE:

Now, were you the only child?

PROTO:

At the time I was the only child.

LEVINE:

And, so he, uh, what had your father done in Sicily before he left, and then when he was here in the United States? Do you know?

PROTO:

Well, in Sicily he was diplomonad to, uh, work on large farms where he would, uh, I guess protect plants and make sure that the good fruit came from them, whatever. Like, a horticulturist.

LEVINE:

A horticulturist, uh-huh.

PROTO:

Right. And that's what he did there, and he was diplomonad. He could go anywhere in the world to work. And he had worked in Egypt and all over Italy. But when he came to this country, of course, in New York City, there wasn't that kind of an opportunity for him. And, uh, he wound up doing general labor, working at the Board of Health as an elevator operator. Well, of course, during World War One he was conscripted into the American Armed Forces, and he was a GI.

LEVINE:

Yeah, uh, so, in other words, before he married your mother in 1920, he . . .

PROTO:

He married her, let's see. I guess he, no, he married her in 1921. 1920 is when he went back.

LEVINE:

Oh, okay.

PROTO:

To see his family.

LEVINE:

Uh, you mean, his family was . . .

PROTO:

In Sicily.

LEVINE:

I see.

PROTO:

Nobody is here but my father.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

PROTO:

And nobody in my mother's family ever came here but my mother.

LEVINE:

I see. Huh. Say, if, is there anything else you can think of about your father's wanderlust? I mean, what, did he, he traveled a lot . . .

PROTO:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Before.

PROTO:

Yes, before he was married. He just seemed to want to do different things and see different places. He went to Buenos Aires, and then he came to this country. And this, and he had friends here from the old hometown, and this is where he stayed.

LEVINE:

Do you know, did anybody ever say, like, why he, I mean, if, it would seem like for a horticulturist to be in New York City, would, do you know why he wanted to stay here?

PROTO:

Well, he had friends here and, of course, there was the language barrier and everything. I guess he felt comfortable. If he had gone to California he probably would have done a lot more, you know, with his profession, etcetera.

LEVINE:

Was he, was he happy here, would you say?

PROTO:

Yes, I think he was happy. My father was a happy kind of person, hardworking and happy, quiet.

LEVINE:

And, uh, what was his name?

PROTO:

His name was John, Johnny.

LEVINE:

And your mother?

PROTO:

Rosa.

LEVINE:

And her maiden name?

PROTO:

Mangione.

LEVINE:

Could you spell that, please?

PROTO:

Yes. M-A-N-G-I-O-N-E.

LEVINE:

Okay. And what about, what kind of a person was she?

PROTO:

Oh, she was a very bright, lively person, and very intelligent, really. And, uh . . .

LEVINE:

So how . . .

PROTO:

She could do anything. ( she laughs )

LEVINE:

Wow. And she taught, um . . .

PROTO:

She had her own, in those days where women weren't liberated, my mother was completely liberated. She had her own business, dressmaking business. And she had a class of about twenty children that she was teaching. In those days they, they, uh, to learn, uh, a trade or whatever you would want to call it, they went to people who did it, and they stayed there for a few years till they learned it, and that's what she did. She had . . .

LEVINE:

She had like apprentices?

PROTO:

Yes, apprentices. She had several apprentices, and she had a, a very going business in her field.

LEVINE:

And did she want to come to this country, do you know?

PROTO:

No. She did not want to come. And, uh, my father had promised my grandfather that he would never leave Italy before he married her, and then he just didn't want to stay. He wanted to come back.

LEVINE:

So how about, do you know anything about your grandparents on either side?

PROTO:

Uh, well, my father lost his parents very young. He was one of thirteen children and, uh, and, uh, my mother, her parents were living, you know, when she got married and, uh, they were, uh, comfortable. Not wealthy, but very comfortable. And, uh, so she, they never had any need to leave their country, and they never did.

LEVINE:

What, what about Vittoria? Do you . . .

PROTO:

Yes, it's a wonderful little busy town, very pretty, very old. Uh, my mother says that when she was a little girl in school, they had a five hundred year celebration of the town. And, as you know, Sicily is very old.

LEVINE:

So, um, do you know, uh, anything about, like, the leaving, or the, or, you know, getting to the port, or, did your mother ever tell you, first of all, who was traveling when you came?

PROTO:

My father, my mother and myself. And, uh, I guess they left from, uh, Naples, and they must have got there by train.

LEVINE:

Okay. And, uh, do you, do you know anything that your mother or father brought with them that they had in this country, from Italy?

PROTO:

Yes. Well, my mother had her entire trousseau in a wooden trunk, you know. And she had beautiful things that her mother had made. And in, uh, Europe, they start with the trousseau when the children are born, practically. And she had sewed, and embroidered practically for twenty years or so. And, uh, when she came to this country most of the immigrants that came had nothing in their trunks, garbage. But when they, when they opened up that trunk, that was it. That trunk was stolen. And my mother never, never forgot it her entire life. But that's what happened to all her precious memories and belongings.

LEVINE:

Now, where was it stolen?

PROTO:

At, uh, Ellis Island. And, uh, it's one of those unfortunate things.

LEVINE:

Yeah, yeah. Did your mother or father ever tell you anything about their wedding?

PROTO:

Uh, not much, except that I guess it was in their house, in my grandfather's house, and they invited friends and relatives, and it was a happy occasion.

LEVINE:

And I guess your mother's mother was also a very good seamstress, or very good at, uh, she made the trousseau.

PROTO:

She made, well, she, in those days everybody had looms and what not, and they made the, she used to make the sheets and whatnot. You know, they used to, she wasn't like my mother, no. My mother was trained and, uh, she was also diplomonad in what she was doing. In those days it was very, uh, unusual for women to be educated and my grandfather was very strict, but he allowed her to be educated. You know, most of the men ( she clears her throat ) didn't go for women being educated, but my grandfather allowed my mother to be educated.

LEVINE:

Was she one of many children?

PROTO:

No. Uh, she had two brothers and herself. And they were also college educated. Unusual, in those days.

LEVINE:

Yes, uh-huh.

PROTO:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Yeah. So, uh, how about the voyage? Did they ever talk about that?

PROTO:

Yes. She said it was seventeen days of bad weather. And she said she was sick all the way. And . . .

LEVINE:

Did she talk about the accommodations? In other words, were they traveling in the, in the, uh, sort of steerage?

PROTO:

I don't know. She said, I guess they traveled the best way my father could afford, but she said it wasn't comfortable. ( they laugh ) She was seasick all the way.

LEVINE:

And your father? Well, he . . .

PROTO:

No, he was, I guess he was pretty, uh, tough, you know.

LEVINE:

And how about you? Did your mother ever say, you know, that you were sick, or . . .

PROTO:

No, no.

LEVINE:

Okay. And then Ellis Island. Uh, so, well, I guess the big, the biggest thing was the stealing of your mother's trunk.

PROTO:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Did they ever say anything else about that?

PROTO:

I think they gave my father a hundred dollars for the loss, for the entire loss.

LEVINE:

Oh.

PROTO:

Yeah. Because that's all that he gave, you know?

LEVINE:

Wow. Now, do you know if they gave it to him there, or if it took a while?

PROTO:

I don't think so. I think it took a while. Yeah. ( a telephone rings )

LEVINE:

And where did they go? When they left Ellis Island, do you know where they went?

PROTO:

Yes. Uh, they, they went downtown, in Manhattan, where my father had friends, and my mother stayed with friends for about a month or so until they found their own apartment.

LEVINE:

And where was that?

PROTO:

On Monroe Street in New York City, in little, at that time there were a lot of Italian people there.

LEVINE:

And so then did you grow up on Monroe Street?

PROTO:

Uh, I grew up on Cherry Street, which is just like a couple of blocks away.

LEVINE:

Now, what do you remember growing up? It was a largely immigrant Italian neighborhood when you were growing up?

PROTO:

Yes. Well, every block almost was a different nationality. Upon Cherry Hill they were Spanish, and on Jane Street they were Irish, and on Rutgers Street they were Jewish. ( she laughs ) And on, on our part of Cherry Street they were Italian. I mean, it was, you know, that's the way New York was. We were a real mixture.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, uh-huh. And how did, how did the kids get along?

PROTO:

Everybody got along fine. We all got along fine.

LEVINE:

And were you in the same school?

PROTO:

Yes.

LEVINE:

And so, uh, was it a lot of children that were newly arriving, do you remember, at that point?

PROTO:

Well, it seems to me, unlike today, that even though the parents didn't speak English, no matter what their nationality was, when the kids went to school they spoke English in no time flat. We all spoke English, and all our parents were immigrants. Whether it was the Jewish kids or the Irish kids or the Spanish kids, everybody spoke English when they got to school. I don't know how they learned it, but we all learned.

LEVINE:

And where were the Spanish kids coming from? Were they coming . . .

PROTO:

From Spain.

LEVINE:

From, they were, uh-huh?

PROTO:

Yes, yes. They were. We didn't have any, uh, Puerto Rican neighbors at that time. They were from Spain, and from Portugal.

LEVINE:

So what was it like for you as a child? You probably knew English better than your parents.

PROTO:

Yes, yes.

LEVINE:

And how, what was that like, being . . .

PROTO:

Well, my parents learned pretty quickly but, uh, if they spoke to us in Italian, we answered them in English, because that was our language. You know, that's what we spoke with our friends, that's what we spoke in English, and in that way it helped the parents, too.

LEVINE:

Did you, do you remember, like, not wanting to speak Italian?

PROTO:

No.

LEVINE:

Did you feel like you were trying to become American, or wasn't that like an issue?

PROTO:

It wasn't an issue. We felt we were American.

LEVINE:

So, um, and your father had already served in the First World War.

PROTO:

Yes, he did.

LEVINE:

As an American soldier.

PROTO:

Yes, he was. And that made my mother, at that time, automatically a citizen, and me, too, when we got here. She never took out citizenship papers. Neither did I, because we were already citizens.

LEVINE:

Because of his service.

PROTO:

Because my father had served in the Army.

LEVINE:

I see, uh-huh. Did your father ever talk about that, about serving in the American Army? Any stories that you recall?

PROTO:

Well . . .

LEVINE:

Or anything else that . . .

PROTO:

Well, he said, since he was also a very good cook ( she laughs ) he cooked for the officers. ( she laughs ) Not for the poor enlisted men, but for the officers. And he enjoyed it. He liked serving in the army. He enjoyed it.

LEVINE:

And did he cook at home sometimes?

PROTO:

Uh, well, we had a summer place out on the South Beach, and, uh, he used to love to cook there, you know? He was a very good cook.

LEVINE:

What would he cook? Would he cook Italian dishes?

PROTO:

Well, it was mainly, no. He cooked mainly, you know, outside there. He made the steaks, you know, on the grill, and things like chicken and steaks and big pots of corn on the cob, because we had a large property on Staten Island, and we had all kinds of fruits and vegetables, and we had wonderful summers.

LEVINE:

Oh. So you, did . . .

PROTO:

We grew up, we had a summer place on the beach, and we lived on the Lower East Side in the winter. You know, we had a 7-room apartment, believe it or not, because we had two apartments. My father, he was able to rent two apartments, and they were adjoining, and the landlord permitted him to make it into one apartment. You know, they took down the wall, and they made one beautiful, large apartment. We had seven rooms in those days.

LEVINE:

Wow.

PROTO:

Which is a lot better than what I have here right now. ( they laugh )

LEVINE:

Well, now, this was on Cherry Street.

PROTO:

Cherry Street.

LEVINE:

And was it, was it like an old, a brownstone, or an old tenement . . .

PROTO:

It was, no, it was a tenement.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

PROTO:

A five-story tenement, and it was very clean, nice stairs, you know, stone, and, uh, nice hallways and everything. It was very clean. It was very nice. And the people improved their apartments, you know.

LEVINE:

I see. So you must have had a whole floor.

PROTO:

No, we had half a floor. We had two apartments.

LEVINE:

Oh, I see. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. So you had like either the front of the back, right? I mean . . .

PROTO:

Yes, yes. We, they were side by side, you know, so that when they took down that wall we had the whole, yeah, thing.

LEVINE:

And do you remember anything about living in, in that place?

PROTO:

Oh, it was wonderful. All the neighbors were wonderful. And, uh, we used to leave our doors open, really, literally. And, uh, the neighbors all shared. During the holidays, everybody was from a different area, and everybody made their special dishes, and everybody would bring a dish down to a neighbor. And so you would have all kinds of food, and all kinds of, you know.

LEVINE:

Now, were there all Italian people living in your particular building?

PROTO:

In my building they were all Italian, but all from different parts of Italy, and so it was different. Everything was, you know, the cooking and everything was different.

LEVINE:

So you, it looks as though you remember this fondly, this period of your life.

PROTO:

We had a, yes, it was a beautiful childhood. People were very nice, and we had a lot of fun. We played in the street. ( she laughs )

LEVINE:

What did you play?

PROTO:

Oh, we played, uh, Johnny On The Pony, we played tag, we played Hide-and-Seek, we jumped rope, we rollerskated. You know?

LEVINE:

Yeah. What's Johnny, I know, I've heard Johnny On The Pony, but I can't . . .

PROTO:

I don't know. Kids would, uh . . .

LEVINE:

Oh, like go down on all fours?

PROTO:

Yes, and you'd jump over the kids and all that.

LEVINE:

Right. Um, so how about school?

PROTO:

School was wonderful. We had wonderful teachers and, uh, I had no problems. I was a straight-A student in those days. And, uh, I don't know. Everybody was very nice. The teachers were nice. I remember learning things in grade school that they were still teaching us when we went to high school, and that's how good our education was.

LEVINE:

Do you remember what school you went to?

PROTO:

Yes. I went to P.S. 1 on Henry Street. It's still up.

LEVINE:

Is it an active school?

PROTO:

Yes, it is. It's now, uh, part of Chinatown. A lot of Chinese children go there. I wonder how it is inside, I mean, after all those years. It was old when I went. Sure. It was by the Five Points Mission, you know, the Irish?

LEVINE:

Yes.

PROTO:

Yes, right there.

LEVINE:

Can you say anything about the Five Points that you recall from your childhood?

PROTO:

I didn't know much about it. I know that they were a charitable . . .

LEVINE:

The mission.

PROTO:

Mission, and that they did wonderful things for people. The whole, uh, era was, uh, giving, even though people were poor. I don't know. People were very nice. And they had The Salvation Army, and they had, I remember, we never needed it, but they used to give milk and what not during those Depression days. They could go to, uh, I think we had one of those stations very close to where I lived where people would go down in the morning and get milk and get groceries, I guess, that they needed. People were very poor during the Depression.

LEVINE:

How did the Depression affect your family? Did it take you . . .

PROTO:

It never affected us. My father had a job working for the City of New York, so he had a steady income. And my mother was a dressmaker and always made a very good living, always. So we were never really affected. But all around us we saw it, you know? And, uh, it was wonderful how people were able to carry on.

LEVINE:

Hmm. Now, was your father working, like, uh, was he working as a laborer for the city?

PROTO:

No, he was working as, he was an elevator operator for the city, at the Board of Health.

LEVINE:

Oh, the Board, uh-huh.

PROTO:

Uh-huh.

LEVINE:

Well, I imagine that was a good job to have.

PROTO:

Yes. It was a very good job to have at that time, because it was a steady income, and people just were, they couldn't find jobs. They were all hardworking people, but they just couldn't find the jobs, and it was very sad.

LEVINE:

Yeah. And it sounds like you, you were, you were fortunate in that you had a place, another place to go to in the summer.

PROTO:

Yes, oh, yes.

LEVINE:

Was that unusual?

PROTO:

Yes, it was.

LEVINE:

Did you know many people who had . . .

PROTO:

No. Well, a lot of people from where my parents came from had arrangements like that. They all had jobs and they all had places that they could buy, you know, for summer places. They all helped each other build these places. My father built our own house on the beach. And, uh, we had, uh, all his friends and neighbors built their own, too, but they all helped each other. You know, come Saturday everybody was in some house building a porch, fixing a room or something.

LEVINE:

Now, these, do you think some of these people were the same friends that your father . . .

PROTO:

Came from, yes.

LEVINE:

That he came to be with.

PROTO:

Yes, yes.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

PROTO:

Yes, and that are still friends.

LEVINE:

Really? They stayed friends all their lives.

PROTO:

Yes, all their lives.

LEVINE:

Do you have any contact with the children of these people that you knew growing up?

PROTO:

Some of them. A lot of them are gone, of course. All of my father's and mother's generation are gone, because my mother was ninety-four when she passed away. So you can imagine there isn't anybody left.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

PROTO:

And then, of course, a lot of them moved away from the cities. There was hardly anybody left. But we had, but we kept in contact with a lot of people. Because of our summer place, you know, they all had the same. Every summer we'd see each other.

LEVINE:

Now, are those places still there, do you think?

PROTO:

Uh, no. Staten Island now has roads built. ( she laughs ) When we moved, when we were there there were . . .

LEVINE:

(?) Staten Island.

PROTO:

There was cattle . . .

LEVINE:

Yeah, that would be . . .

PROTO:

Cattle. People had cows, and they would come up to our fence and, uh, we had a neighbor who had a nannygoat, and, uh, he would chain that nanny goat so that all the, he would just go up and down on the sidewalk. Well, the nanny goat walked on the sidewalk, and we had to walk on the street. ( she laughs ) And I guess he milked it every day, got his milk.

LEVINE:

So it really was the country.

PROTO:

It was real country in those days, South Beach.

LEVINE:

And what about, how did people, did people have, like, big gardens, and . . .

PROTO:

Yes, people had gardens, because you, when you bought property there you'd get two and three lots and, you know. So we had three lots, and then my father had bought three lots across the street, because he thought maybe one of the children would want to build a house when they grew up, or something like that. And, of course, we sold it all too soon. ( she laughs ) Six lots now would go for a fortune. But we enjoyed it, we enjoyed it for over thirty years.

LEVINE:

So your father was back with, uh, horticulturally.

PROTO:

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, the garden was gorgeous. You know, we had figs and peaches and pears and apples and plums, and all kinds of vegetables, and all kinds of flowers. It was just beautiful.

LEVINE:

And did your mother or father make things out of, you know, the crops?

PROTO:

Oh, yes, yes. We would, they, we would work for days on end jarring peaches and apples, making applesauce, and, uh, tomatoes and all kinds of things. And we had enough for the winter. And everything was delicious.

LEVINE:

And how about, did you have, like grape arbors?

PROTO:

Yes, we did, but they weren't the grape that you would buy in the store. They were like, uh, I don't know, Concord, what do they call those grapes?

LEVINE:

Oh, those purple ones.

PROTO:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Yeah, I think that's right.

PROTO:

Concord, yeah.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

PROTO:

Yes.

LEVINE:

And how about socializing? Did people, um, get together? Did they sing, and dance, and . . .

PROTO:

Oh, on Saturday night all the neighbors would get together. They would come with their guitars to the different houses, and everybody would dance and sing every Saturday night. It was just, I wish we had something like that today. We had so much fun. And they went to the different houses. They would come to our house, we'd go to their house.

LEVINE:

And would you provide food, like when they came to your house?

PROTO:

Oh, yes, yes. Well, yeah. There was fruit, you know, and maybe, uh, something to drink. Yes, we had good times.

LEVINE:

And how about your upbringing? Was your mother or your father strict with you?

PROTO:

Uh, they were strict in a sense, and in another sense they were very fair. We didn't do what children do these days. If I went out, my brothers had to go with me. ( she laughs ) They didn't, they no more wanted me than they wanted a hole in the head, but those were the rules. We went out together, and we came home together. That was it.

LEVINE:

Until you were how old?

PROTO:

Old. ( they laugh )

LEVINE:

What were your brothers' names?

PROTO:

Frank and Joe, Joseph and Frank. And they were twins.

LEVINE:

Oh.

PROTO:

And they were just two years younger than I, so we were more or less with the same crowd, you know.

LEVINE:

And, uh, let's see. Uh, anything else about, uh, attitudes of your, of your mother and father, things that they tried to instill in you as far as being a certain kind of person, or . . .

PROTO:

Oh, yes. Honesty and education. Yes. My brothers were educated. One is a CPA, the other one had his own business, and I was a secretary in, for a very short time, because then I was married. So they instilled good values, I think. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

LEVINE:

And how about, um, how long did you stay in school?

PROTO:

Uh, well, I graduated high school, and then I went to business college for a year.

LEVINE:

And that I think probably . . .

PROTO:

In those days, in those days it was, you know, it was a good education. My brother is a CPA, so he finished college. And my other brother graduated high school, and he had, uh, a scholarship to go to MIT, but he decided he wanted his own business and that's what, and he opened up a garage, and he did very well with his garage. He retired at fifty-one.

LEVINE:

Was the garage in Manhattan?

PROTO:

Our first one was in Manhattan, and then, uh, he opened one in the Five Towns, in Woodmere, where he had very wealthy clientele, and where he did very, you know, exceptional, work on very good cars and whatnot.

LEVINE:

Foreign cars?

PROTO:

And stuff like that, yeah.

LEVINE:

Wow. So what was your first job after you went to business school?

PROTO:

Uh, my first job was traveling from New York City all the way out to Midland Beach, Orange, in Staten Island, because nobody would give you a job without experience, and so our insurance man from Staten Island was a very good friend. You know, in those days they came to your house and collected their, whatever. And, uh, he gave me my first job. And so for six months I ran on that Staten Island ferry, then on a bus all the way out to Midland Beach. And, uh, did work in his office.

LEVINE:

And then what after that?

PROTO:

Then I, I left. ( she laughs ) And I got a job in New York, uh, at The Salvation Army headquarters.

LEVINE:

Where was that?

PROTO:

It was on 14th Street, near Orbach's, around there. They still have the . . .

LEVINE:

I've seen it.

PROTO:

The Evangeline Hotel, yeah. It was very nice, very nice. They were very nice, and it was a wonderful job. I was a secretary there. They had, uh, fundraisers and whatnot, and, uh, you'd hear from the Vanderbilts, and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor came to visit. I took his coat and hung it up. ( she laughs ) And I looked in it, and it said Prince of Wales. I says, "Boy, this is an old coat." ( they laugh ) But we had, it was a wonderful job. It was like a, it wasn't like working in a regular office, you know? You got on the phone when people would be making their donations and they would be Rockefellers and Astors. It was really different. And then in the summertime they had a place in New Jersey where they had a summer camp for children, and we were counselors there, the kids from the office. And so we were on the beach in the summertime. It was a really wonderful job.

LEVINE:

And was it a big staff?

PROTO:

Yes, it was, the whole building belonged to The Salvation Army. It still does. And it was a hotel for women, you know, yeah, for young women who came to work in New York.

LEVINE:

At that time?

PROTO:

Yes. It was like, uh, I guess the Barbizon, where they would give them meals and a room, and they had a lovely, big living room with a beautiful piano and whatnot where they could entertain their guests. It was, it was a beautiful, a beautiful little place. And, uh, it was very nice. I think I was the only Catholic there.

LEVINE:

I was just going to ask you, was your family religious?

PROTO:

Yes. My family was religious. And, uh, The Salvation Army is a Protestant organization, but they were wonderful. I didn't care. When my brothers heard I was working there they said, "Are you going to play the tambourine on the street?" ( she laughs ) I says, "No, I'm in the office." It was very nice.

LEVINE:

So how long did you stay there?

PROTO:

Oh, about two-and-a-half years.

LEVINE:

And then did you meet your husband while you were working there?

PROTO:

My husband was in the service. He was eighteen years old, and that was World War Two. And, uh, they drafted everybody at eighteen and nineteen, and my brothers were eighteen, they were both in the service, and my husband was nineteen, he was able to stay out a year older. And he was in the service, and they all were in combat zones, and lucky to come home.

LEVINE:

Did you know your husband before he went in the service?

PROTO:

Yes. He was a neighbor. He was across the street from where I lived.

LEVINE:

Were you, now, when you were working in The Salvation Army, were you still living at home on Cherry Street?

PROTO:

Yes, yes.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

PROTO:

I was living there till I was married at the age of twenty-five.

LEVINE:

So that means probably your mother and father knew him, too?

PROTO:

Yes. Everybody knew everybody. They were our neighbors. They lived across the street.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. So had you known him, like, over the years?

PROTO:

We grew up together, yes, playmates.

LEVINE:

And did you think of him as a, as a boyfriend?

PROTO:

No, not, no, no.

LEVINE:

What was his name?

PROTO:

Anthony, Anthony.

LEVINE:

And how about when you got married? Did you have a big wedding, or not?

PROTO:

No, we had a small wedding, and, uh, we had a reception at the house and, uh, all our friends were there.

LEVINE:

So I guess his family, did they come from Sicily as well, or did they . . .

PROTO:

Yes, they did. But, uh, they weren't anywhere near where my family came. His family was city people. They came from Palermo.

LEVINE:

And, uh, let's see. So then, uh . . .

PROTO:

He was born here.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh. And where did you live after you got married?

PROTO:

Uh, we had an apartment on Market Street for a short while, and then, uh, just before my son was born we moved to Knickerbocker Village, and we were there for about thirty years. Knickerbocker is, uh, Knickerbocker Village is the original, uh, apartment complex, like Stuyvesant Town.

LEVINE:

Right. Where is it?

PROTO:

It's where Stuyvesant, it's, uh, Stuyvesant Town was fashioned after Knickerbocker. It was owned by, it was owned by Fred French. And, uh, it was very, very nice.

LEVINE:

And where?

PROTO:

It was, uh, it was a large complex, a square block. And we lived on Monroe Street.

LEVINE:

Is it there now?

PROTO:

Oh, yes. It's still a very nice apartment house, lots of people. Beautiful rooms. We had a nice courtyard, you know, with pretty trees.

LEVINE:

Yeah? So it was like the first of that kind of complex.

PROTO:

Yes, yes. And it was very nice. With beautiful mahogany furniture in the halls, and it was quaint.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Great. Now, did you continue to work after you were married, or did you . . .

PROTO:

No, I was home. Uh, I was home. And, uh, when my husband passed away I went back to work.

LEVINE:

Well, now, what did your husband do after he got out of the Army?

PROTO:

My husband, when he was in the Army, was trained in refrigeration engineering, and so when he got out he opened his own place.

LEVINE:

Downtown, in, uh . . .

PROTO:

No, in Brooklyn.

LEVINE:

Oh.

PROTO:

And his company was the American Air Refrigeration Company. It was his company. He had a partner.

LEVINE:

Great. And then, uh, you had children.

PROTO:

Three.

LEVINE:

Three. And what are their names?

PROTO:

Uh, Nancy, John and Rosemary. Yes.

LEVINE:

And then you stayed living in Knickerbocker Village?

PROTO:

We stayed in Knickerbocker Village, yes, until I moved here to Waterside.

LEVINE:

And was your husband alive when you moved here?

PROTO:

My husband passed away, uh, at the age of thirty-two.

LEVINE:

Oh, my goodness.

PROTO:

He had a heart attack. And so I was a widow for a very long time, and I raised my three children, educated them.

LEVINE:

When you went back to work, where did you go?

PROTO:

The New York Journal American, right across the street from Knickerbocker. That's where the Post is now.

LEVINE:

Oh.

PROTO:

And Knickerbocker is right across the street. It used to take me four minutes exactly to go from Knickerbocker to the New York Journal American, and that's why I took it, because I had to be in three places at the same time, at the office, at home, to make sure, schools, and.

LEVINE:

So that worked out well? You stayed there for . . .

PROTO:

Oh, yes, yes. Knickerbocker was wonderful. It was like a big family there. Everybody knew each other. Everybody watched out for each other's kids and everything.

LEVINE:

So in a way there were probably some of the people that you had grown up with in . . .

PROTO:

Yes. In Knickerbocker, yes.

LEVINE:

On Monroe Street?

PROTO:

Yes, yes, right. Yes.

LEVINE:

Wow. So did any of those same people come to Waterside after that?

PROTO:

No, no.

LEVINE:

No, uh-huh.

PROTO:

But I still go see them downtown. Some of them are still left there. Most of them have moved out, you know, and gone, and bought houses in Brooklyn or Long Island or whatever. But, uh, I have a few friends that I grew up with still living in Knickerbocker, and we still see each other and call each other.

LEVINE:

That's wonderful.

PROTO:

Yeah. Girls I went to school with are still down there.

LEVINE:

Uh, well, when you, when you look back on that whole growing up in an immigrant community, do you think that made a difference in kind of who you became, or made an influence on your life in some way?

PROTO:

Well, if it did, I'm not too aware of it, because everybody considered themselves American, and everybody, uh, went to school and went to work, got married, you know, like, like everybody else. We didn't consider ourselves foreign, or immigrants.

LEVINE:

Did you ever, did you ever experience any kind of, uh, you know, prejudice, or thinking of you as greenhorns . . .

PROTO:

No.

LEVINE:

Or that kind of thing?

PROTO:

No, no. We didn't, because I guess we were all in the same boat, practically, and nobody considered anybody anything, you know, whether they were friends or not.

LEVINE:

And how about your, do you think you raised your children in some ways that your mother and father had seen?

PROTO:

Of course, of course.

LEVINE:

Can you think of any particular ways that you found yourself doing what your parents . . .

PROTO:

I think we all find ourselves doing what our parents did unconsciously sometimes, and I guess I did, without realizing it or thinking about it, even. You try to instill the right, uh, morals, and, uh, education, and, uh, I don't know, and keeping away from bad company, and even though I was working I used to call every day at three o'clock, and I made sure who was where, and when I got home everybody had to be home, or else. And, uh, I went to the PTA meetings. I did what parents do today with their children, and I never had a day's worth of trouble with any of them. We were very fortunate, because some of the children they grew up with didn't grow up like mine. It's unfortunate, the parents are nice, too. It's just the way things turn out sometimes. Some children are more vulnerable and, uh, I wouldn't throw any rocks at anybody because I say there but for the grace of God go I. I just consider myself very fortunate in that respect.

LEVINE:

How about, um, during World War Two? Do you recall anything about the impact of your war on you, and . . .

PROTO:

Yes, yes. My brothers were both in the service, and my future husband was in the service, and all the kids we knew in the neighborhood were in the service. Some of them never came back. It was very sad.

LEVINE:

And how about the war effort here? Were you . . .

PROTO:

I think we had rationing, and, uh, but nobody really complained about it, you know? It was an effort that we had to make, and there was enough. Even though they were rationed, there was enough of everything. We were fortunate, and, of course, everybody was working. And, uh, I was working. My brothers, of course, weren't in the service. They were just babies, eighteen. And, uh, everybody came back in my family, so we considered ourselves lucky.

LEVINE:

And do you remember when the war was over?

PROTO:

Yes. It was a very happy time. Everybody celebrated. And we were all happy. We couldn't wait for them to come home. We wrote every day.

LEVINE:

Really?

PROTO:

Oh, every day we wrote. I wrote every day. And my mother wrote, and we sent packages, cookies, all kinds of things. We always sent packages. I remember my mother sewing up those, those, those cloth packages. She put everything into cloth, and sewed them up, and then put wax to make sure the stitches didn't open, and we addressed everything carefully, and brought it to the post office.

LEVINE:

And can you remember any of the letters from your brother that they were writing back?

PROTO:

Oh, yes, oh, yes. They wrote and sent pictures and, uh, my brother Frank was in, uh, in the Pacific, and, uh, he was on an LST boat where they used to land the marines, and it was hard. And my brother Joe was in the Fifth Infantry in Italy, and, uh, my husband was in the Pacific, also. He was in the, they had trained him in the, in air conditioning and refrigeration, and he took care of those supplies of food for the GI's, made sure those refrigerators or whatever were working so that, uh, we could feed the troops, and stuff like that. It was, uh, it was hard times when they were away.

LEVINE:

And what about Joe? Was he, was he specifically sent to Italy because of him being Italian, or . . .

PROTO:

No, no.

LEVINE:

No.

PROTO:

He was in the Fifth Army. ( she laughs )

LEVINE:

Okay.

PROTO:

And, uh, and he was the least prospect for an infantryman. He was not a big guy, and he was, he had, he was a college kid. But they put everybody where they needed them. You know, after the service, they offered him a commission, and he said, "I'm going home." ( she laughs )

LEVINE:

Well, when you think back on your life, what do you feel proud of or satisfied about?

PROTO:

Well, it was, the fact that I was able to look back at my parents to see how wonderful they were and how hard they worked, without letting us feel, uh, I don't know, poor. We never felt poor, because our parents never let us feel that way. And I did the same when my children, after my husband died, and the results were good with my brothers and myself, and with my children. I'm not unhappy.

LEVINE:

And how about this period of your life?

PROTO:

Now?

LEVINE:

Yeah.

PROTO:

Well, as my mother used to say, growing old is not for sissies, so I'd rather not talk about it.

LEVINE:

Well, your mother who lived to be what age?

PROTO:

Ninety-four.

LEVINE:

And was she with you, uh, how, in your old age, or . . .

PROTO:

Well, she had a, she had a house in White Meadow Lake in New Jersey until she was eighty-eight. Then she, then we insisted that she give it up because it was getting too much. It was a big house and, uh, to get somebody to cut the lawn, and to get somebody to do this and that, it was hard. And so she sold the house which, of course, we don't feel too good about it. And, uh, she went to live with my daughter, who has a mother-daughter house, and, uh, she had her own apartment in my daughter's house, and I would go there every weekend to make sure, I would cook for her and shop for her and, uh . . .

LEVINE:

In New Jersey?

PROTO:

Keep her company. In, on Long Island. Well, when she was in New Jersey I did that, too, yes. And, uh, that's the way things were.

LEVINE:

Now, did you visit Ellis Island at all?

PROTO:

Yes, we did, and my mother has, uh, I don't know where it is, where it's hanging. Oh, it's hanging . . .

LEVINE:

ON the wall of the . . .

PROTO:

In the foyer, yeah. Uh-huh. We have her down. Her, my dad . . .

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh.

PROTO:

Well, I guess now I'll be down. ( she laughs )

LEVINE:

Well, yeah, good, good. So, did, I guess it, you wouldn't have remembered anything of Ellis Island, but it probably does have a special connection . . .

PROTO:

Yes, yes.

LEVINE:

It does have a special connection for you.

PROTO:

Yes, of course. I don't remember. I was only three months old. But, uh, my mother always says that, uh, my father put us all in a taxi and we went to where he was staying with friends.

LEVINE:

When you got off of Ellis Island.

PROTO:

Uh-huh.

LEVINE:

And also you must have seen a lot of changes in New York City?

PROTO:

Oh, yes, oh, yes. In fact, when, I lived on Cherry Street, and, uh, downtown, the Wall Street area, and whatnot, was, uh, where we used to play at night, because there were no cars. We used to bring our skates and bicycles, you know, those hollowed sounds of an empty office building and, uh, and now there's so much new construction and new Pace College, and all the new highways and whatnot, but I hardly recognize it. We used to, when we were children we, our idea of recreation at night was to walk the bridges, across the bridges. The Brooklyn Bridge one night, the Manhattan Bridge another night.

LEVINE:

A whole group?

PROTO:

Yeah, a whole bunch of friends. We'd all go, and we'd sing, and, and just walk across the bridges, or walk to the Battery. Or, uh, go through Chinatown. I mean, that's what we did. And if we had bicycles and skates or whatever, we'd go to, to the courthouse, we'd call it, and that was round by the courthouses, because there was nobody there, and the streets were empty, and you could bring your skates and bicycles and whatnot. And that's what we did.

LEVINE:

Well, it sounds like a good old time.

PROTO:

We had very good times, and New York was a lot of fun. We could come home any time of the day or night. Nobody bothered you. And we'd go to weddings, and we'd go to socials, and different church socials on Saturday nights, you know, and different, different friends from school and whatnot, and we'd go to their church, and they'd go to ours, and there was The Educational Alliance on East Broadway.

LEVINE:

Oh, tell about that.

PROTO:

That was very, very nice, too, and they had all kinds of dances and what not. We'd go there, too. By The Jewish Daily Forward, the Educational Alliance, on East Broadway.

LEVINE:

Right. And so all different . . .

PROTO:

All different nationalities.

LEVINE:

Would go there.

PROTO:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And they, and they'd have social events and also educational?

PROTO:

Yes, yes. They had, they always had dances.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh.

PROTO:

Yeah, and whatnot. And we'd go, we'd go to everything, you know? To the church, to the Edgies, we used to call them the Edgies, the Edgies. And uptown, downtown, wherever we had friends.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And would you actually, like, study things there, in The Educational Alliance, or no?

PROTO:

Uh, I, we just went for the socials. We didn't know too much about their other programs. We went to the library every Saturday for story hour.

LEVINE:

Oh. Which library was that?

PROTO:

On East Broadway. It's still there.

LEVINE:

So what, someone would read, or . . .

PROTO:

Yes. They used to have, I guess, a librarian there to read to the children on Saturdays, and we'd all go there every Saturday, and then we'd take out books that we liked. We lived in the library. We went to the library a lot. It was social as well as educational.

LEVINE:

And do you remember anything about the Jewish Forward, any, I mean . . .

PROTO:

I remember passing that building every time we went to The Educational Alliance. Of course, it was a wonderful, I guess it was their paper, The Jewish Daily Forward. I think it's still there.

LEVINE:

I think, well, the building's still there. I don't know . . .

PROTO:

I don't know if they publish any more. I don't know. Maybe they publish elsewhere, but they did at the time publish on East Broadway.

LEVINE:

Yeah, right. And were there a lot of, uh, Jewish people, like, religious Jewish people around?

PROTO:

Oh, yes. My best friend, Rosalyn, her family had a dry goods store, you know. They sold everything there, you know, like children's clothes, and if you needed towels or whatever. I went to school with Rosalyn. She was a very good friend of mine. And, uh, she was Jewish, yeah. As I said, we all, everybody mixed in those days, and nobody really even thought about, you know, and, like I said, each block there was a different group. It was really quite nice. I don't know why people didn't really hate each other in those days, but they didn't. I guess they were all immigrants, whether they were Jewish or Italian or Irish or whatever, they were all immigrants. And they all had to struggle to make it.

LEVINE:

Well, that sounds like it's a perfect place to end.

PROTO:

Yes, yes.

LEVINE:

I want to thank you so much.

PROTO:

You're welcome.

LEVINE:

For a very interesting interview.

PROTO:

Yes, thank you.

LEVINE:

Really very lovely. I've been speaking with Marianna Proto, and it's, uh, September 10, 1997, and this is Janet Levine for the National Park Service, and I'm signing off. - 1 -