SIGRIST:

Good morning. This is Paul Sigrist for the National Park Service. Today is Thursday, September 18 th , 1997. I'm in Brooklyn, New York, the Bishop Francis J. Mugavero [PH] Center on Dean Street. And I'm here with Mrs. Marie Dodson Williams. Mrs. Williams worked for the WPA at Ellis Island from 1935 to 1938. Present also in the room is volunteer, Roger Herz [PH], and the resident kitten, [chuckles] who is going to be all over the place during the interview, I can see. Mrs. Williams, may we begin by you giving me your birth date?

WILLIAMS:

I was born January the 3 rd , 1902.

SIGRIST:

Where were you born?

WILLIAMS:

I was born in Richmond, Virginia.

SIGRIST:

Before we talk about your Ellis Island experience, can you just tell me a little bit of family background?

WILLIAMS:

Well, my f — my mother and my father were both born in Milton [PH], North Carolina, of which there wasn't — it wasn't even on the map. And I had no birth certificate until I was taking my civil service examination up here. Then from an old Bible they got all the information they needed at the recording office in Virginia. And they sent me up a duplicate birth certificate. And that — that u — I used that when I took my civil service examination. And I passed.

SIGRIST:

T — let me talk a little bit about your parents before we get into —

WILLIAMS:

Mmm.

SIGRIST:

— your working history. What was your father's name?

WILLIAMS:

Was John Henry Dodson.

SIGRIST:

That's D-O-D —

WILLIAMS:

D-O-D-S-O-N.

SIGRIST:

Thank you. What did your father do for a living?

WILLIAMS:

My father, he was a m — g — Navy machinist. He drilled and repaired battleships or any other ship before the war, before the wars began.

SIGRIST:

Which — which wars are you referring to?

WILLIAMS:

To the — the First American War, 1918.

SIGRIST:

First World War.

WILLIAMS:

World War. And then the Second World War and then that was all the wars we had been in — in since then.

SIGRIST:

Let me ask you a question. You said that you were born in Milton, North Carolina.

WILLIAMS:

No, Virginia.

SIGRIST:

In Milton —

WILLIAMS:

Newport News, Virginia.

SIGRIST:

You were born in Newport News.

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

[unclear]

WILLIAMS:

My parents.

SIGRIST:

Your parents came from Milton?

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

North Carolina.

WILLIAMS:

Milton, North Carolina.

SIGRIST:

Right. Was Milton primarily an African American community in North Carolina?

WILLIAMS:

Well, that I don't know because I was born there and I was brought here. I have — I was told a lot about it by my parents.

SIGRIST:

Uh-hmm.

WILLIAMS:

But it was just a little settlement.

SIGRIST:

I see.

WILLIAMS:

It was a settlement. When they got married, they jumped over a broomstick.

SIGRIST:

Can you — can you talk a little bit about that? Was that a custom?

WILLIAMS:

That was a custom down there because they didn't keep records for Negroes.

SIGRIST:

Were there — were there any other customs that your mother and father told you about that were particular to — to that par — that culture at that time?

WILLIAMS:

They worked on a farm. My father met my mother because his oldest sister had married my mother's father. And they met. And when you're — in the South at that time, when you got to be tall, you were big enough to get married. So she married my — my father used to come to my mother's home because he could always get a good meal. And then —

SIGRIST:

What's your mother's name?

WILLIAMS:

Louise. Lulu [PH]. Lulu Hodge. H-O-D-G-E.

SIGRIST:

So Lulu was her middle name?

WILLIAMS:

My — my middle name was not Lulu.

SIGRIST:

No, your mother's middle name was Lulu?

WILLIAMS:

No, they — they — they called her Lu.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh.

WILLIAMS:

They called her Lu. But after we started in New York, she changed it to Louise, because that's more in time with up here.

SIGRIST:

I see. I see. We could have a whole different oral history interview here. [chuckles] This is very interesting about — about the southern customs. But we really, I guess — let me ask you some questions about you. How old were you when your — your family moved north?

WILLIAMS:

Three months.

SIGRIST:

Three months old.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Where in the north did you move to?

WILLIAMS:

Boston, Massachusetts.

SIGRIST:

And how long did you stay in Boston?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, I stayed there the first time about two years. And then we went to Rhode Island, Fall River.

SIGRIST:

Fall River, Massachusetts.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, Fall River. And we went back to New York and we went — as far as I can understand, from what they told me, we went back to Virginia. Then we — he was called to Massachusetts. And everywhere he went, Mama would have to go. We were in Boston for quite a while at a time, because I remember going to school there.

SIGRIST:

You're remembering something. I can see you're smiling.

WILLIAMS:

[chuckles] And in school, the teachers used to keep me after school to sing, because I used to sing, "Jesus loves me, this I know."

SIGRIST:

Would you like to sing it for me on tape?

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

Since you learned it as a child?

WILLIAMS:

No, I do — wouldn't like to sing it on tape because it isn't what it should be like. I don't sing like I used to sing, you know.

SIGRIST:

Not just a little bit?

WILLIAMS:

[singing] Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so. That's all I want to sing.

SIGRIST:

Thank you. We've kind of gone off a little bit. Let's —

WILLIAMS:

Well, when I think of those things, you know, it sort of hits a memory cord and [unclear].

SIGRIST:

Why don't we talk about how you get the job at Ellis Island to begin with? Where were you living at the time?

WILLIAMS:

I was living in New York, Brooklyn, New York. King's —

SIGRIST:

King's Park, you said?

WILLIAMS:

No, no. I was going to say King's County.

SIGRIST:

King's County.

WILLIAMS:

Yes, King's County. Brooklyn. I lived — when I graduated from public school I was living on Dean Street. That's where all the colored people would center when they came from different places. I was living at 1858 Dean Street (that was between Rochester and Buffalo) when I graduated.

SIGRIST:

And how was it decided that you would get a job?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, it was — well, it was 1917; you know, the World's War started. And it was hard for — well, I — I didn't lo — look for a job when I graduated because I went to high school, Girl's High in [unclear]. Was nice. I met a lot of nice people there, nice girls, rather.

SIGRIST:

You got the job at Ellis Island well after you had graduated.

WILLIAMS:

Yes, yes.

SIGRIST:

Yes. Can you tell me how you found out about the job that was available?

WILLIAMS:

Well, I tell you when I got married my husband was a Navy man. He used the type — he was a typewriter in the Navy. And his certificate said — certificate said he was a first class typist. And so, of course, when he died I went to the Veteran's, because at that time they were — had little stations around Brooklyn for people that were helpless. But they didn't consider me helpless.

SIGRIST:

Was this after you had worked at Ellis Island?

WILLIAMS:

No, it was before.

SIGRIST:

This was before. Oh, so — I see.

WILLIAMS:

It's [unclear]. And my — and after I got married — I didn't get married until 1928 — my husband was a Massachusetts man, Braintree, Massachusetts.

SIGRIST:

And what was his name?

WILLIAMS:

Samuel Thomas Williams. And he was — well, I didn't know too much about him. He was a nice fellow. My family liked him to visit, you know, and he was educated because he always used to carry a big book. And that influenced me. That was all you — the insurance you needed in those days, to have a book and show that you were studious.

SIGRIST:

Now, you said that he died —

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

— young.

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Can you talk a little bit about that?

WILLIAMS:

Well, then the Navy — well, the Navy station, that Veteran's station that I went to, they told me that my education and my customs were too much to be assigned to a job that they usually assigned to girls in my position. So he said, "If you take civil service examinations" — I said, "But I do. I have a record there of having taken civil service." So he checked it and he found out that I was. And so but I had to take another examination currently. And he got me the job at Visi [PH] Street first. That was where we were.

SIGRIST:

That's in Lower Manhattan.

WILLIAMS:

Lower Manhattan.

SIGRIST:

Right.

WILLIAMS:

We were getting together the ship's logs and all records of entrances to United States. They were mutilated. The pages were torn. The bindings were off and the paper that the information had been put on was all in pieces, but they had been put between eisen [PH] glass. At that time, you called it eisen glass. And therefore, we had to write — type, rather, cards with the foreign names and then the Americanized names that could be taken for it. Then for a while there it was bleak. I stayed — I was home until I was called to Ellis I — to a New York office from the Veteran's. They were giving me the WPA job instead of a housework job. And I went to Visi Street with the g — with the group of people, also qualified workers, you know that, but they couldn't get work. Work was very scarce. And I got the work at Visi Street repairing old records. And then I was called to Ellis Island.

SIGRIST:

How long were you at Visi Street —

WILLIAMS:

I was —

SIGRIST:

— working with the ship manifests?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, about a year and a half, about a year and a half. And —

SIGRIST:

And that's after that time, that's when they wanted you to go to Ellis Island?

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Did you know — what did you know about Ellis Island?

WILLIAMS:

Nothing, nothing at all. We just was told to go. We met all together and at that time I took the Fulton Street trolley car. They had a conductor in the front and a conductor in the center, got off at Hoyt [PH] Street and took the subway over to New York. Right on the corner where we got up was a great big church, a Catholic church. And I used to go into there in the mornings because my heart was heavy. And I'd just sit in the coolness. You know, a Catholic church is very beautiful. And I'd play. Then we'd ride on the trolley, the b — trolley down to the dock where the ferry was landed. We got on there and the — you know, on the sides where the ferry came up it was all wood. And I can see the old ferryboat now, rocking from side to side. I always sat on the second deck. Sometimes, the day was nice. Sometimes, it wasn't, but when the entry into the Ellis Island was far different from what it is now.

SIGRIST:

Where did the ferry let you off?

WILLIAMS:

Right in front of the building. But it was all wood in there, not paved with cement and beautiful like it is now. No. [chuckles] You'd walk up in that hall. When I walked into the hallway the other day, I couldn't help but cry because it brought back so many, many memories that I didn't want. But it was a good job and I had the education.

SIGRIST:

Well, tell me some of what you remember about working at Ellis Island.

WILLIAMS:

Well, I'd walk in and go up that great staircase and then we'd — my — my group went into — on this side of the stairway —

SIGRIST:

It's the right side.

WILLIAMS:

The right-hand side. And there was a big room that was all lined with tall file cases. We had in charge of us a Mr. Anderson. He would distribute the cards that had been typed with the names, and we were supposed to file them or put them into the file that had already been started. And it was — l — we had l — low stools that we sat on and they weren't nice, soft stools like we have now. You'd have to go around, you know, to reach the — the file drawers. Then we'd — but that — but that Lower Hall where the immigrants came in, we saw them, you know.

SIGRIST:

What do you remember about that?

WILLIAMS:

And you know, they were so disheveled. They were dirty. And this was late in the game, you know, late in years for immigration because the immigration really started years before that. Babies hanging onto their mother's long, black dresses, and the fathers being separated. They were separated and those that could stay were put in a room to be medically examined. Well, we — that was just a little bit we saw of that.

SIGRIST:

Did you ever speak to an immigrant while you worked there?

WILLIAMS:

No, no. No, we weren't —

SIGRIST:

Were there any rules about that?

WILLIAMS:

We weren't allowed. They had offices all — all along there all the time. No, we weren't — we were just taught to go up the stairs and we had [unclear] guards that always did it. But there, at times, we would meet famous people, you know, that afterwards, we found out were musical or motion picture connected.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any of those people?

WILLIAMS:

Well, there was one girl. She turned out to be a real famous movie actor, but I don't remember. But everybody was sent over as So and So and So.

SIGRIST:

Tell me about some of the people that you worked with. Does anyone stick out in your mind?

WILLIAMS:

Well, a — a man in the group picked — [chuckles] — he set my mind against cream cheese and jelly for — for sandwiches. [chuckles] He looked like a big, strapping man to me but he always ordered — we — we had a little lunchroom that we could go and buy things for lunch. Oh, we had tickets that provided us to get it. And he was a big, strong man but he would always — and somebody said afterwards that he had a stomach problem. And so he couldn't eat anything but cream — and every time now they have, say, cream cheese and — [chuckles] I remember this guy, you know, a man with cream cheese and jelly. [chuckles]

SIGRIST:

W — were there any other African American people working —

WILLIAMS:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

Can you talk a little bit about that?

WILLIAMS:

Yes. There was a girl that was the head of the group under the — Miss Anderson. She was a thin little colored woman and she was very conscious of her position, and she used to boss us, you know. And — and you never did anything right for her. But I guess she had a job to do. S — and there were so many. Those are the only two that really stood out. Oh, in the group, when I remember th — there was a — a — a big Caucasian woman in there. She was very — she must have been an opera singer. Well, anyway, she was a friend of Mr. Anderson's. And she used to sing — when we had to — we had to sing "America," you know, and salute the flag all the time. And she would always sing, "America!" And she would go up high. And he was so proud of her. He used to give her all the good work. But she had the talent. She must have been a musical student, you know, because that's what the whole group was made up out of.

SIGRIST:

Did — was there a flag in your office?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, yes. Great big, tall flag in the corner. It wasn't in the office. It was just a bare room on the side with cabinets. Oh, they had cabinets. They had brought records that had been filed away in that government place that they keep all records and — what do you call that?

SIGRIST:

The National Archives?

WILLIAMS:

Archives. That's the word. Archives. They — that's where these books and records came from.

SIGRIST:

And your job — your job —

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

— was specifically to file these cards.

WILLIAMS:

The cards in the — the cabinets that had been provided for us. The cards would come in. They must have been made up by other groups because there were loads and loads of files.

SIGRIST:

And they weren't —

WILLIAMS:

Records.

SIGRIST:

And they weren't being produced by you. You were —

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

You were just getting them already done?

WILLIAMS:

Ready, yes.

SIGRIST:

I see.

WILLIAMS:

Now, the — the part that I did, we — we did when we were repairing the books, we had to type the cards with the names and the records. And that — but see, tho —

SIGRIST:

That was on Visi Street —

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

— when you were doing that.

WILLIAMS:

But then they were all taken away. And you know, at that time, things were so disjointed. President Roosevelt had taken on a job. In 1929, it was when the — the — the banks failed, to a certain extent. Those people that had $500 were left — were supposed to be rich, you know. They were left penniless. So that's why he started something, to keep the country going, I guess.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how much you got paid for the WPA job?

WILLIAMS:

We got paid for — no, we didn't get paid for that. We got paid when — when we started the other job, when we started at the Navy Yard. When we started, I was working at Ellis Island when the result of one of my examinations called me to the Navy yard in 1941. That was after Pearl Harbor had attacked. The — the Japs had attacked Pearl Harbor.

SIGRIST:

And so you went to another job?

WILLIAMS:

I went — that's when I got the job with the — as an auditor at the Navy Yard. I was first — the ships were there to be repaired from — from the confusion. And my office was in the Navy Yard right at the front of Navy Street.

SIGRIST:

In Brooklyn.

WILLIAMS:

In Brooklyn, in Brooklyn. And we'd go in and in 1941 President Roosevelt came in there to encourage the workers that were doing WPA work or machine work or whatever. And I worked in machine shop number 38. I had charge of a little office that took charge of 2,500 men. [END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A] [BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE B]

SIGRIST:

I still have some questions about Ellis Island.

WILLIAMS:

Uh-hmm.

SIGRIST:

If we could just go back a little bit. What were your hours? What time did you have to arrive at Ellis Island?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, we — well, we had to arrive at Ellis Island at seven o'clock. Seven o'clock.

SIGRIST:

And what time did you get out?

WILLIAMS:

About three.

SIGRIST:

And you said that you had a little lunchroom.

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Does anything else stick out in your mind about having lunch at Ellis Island? First of all, where did — where did you get your food?

WILLIAMS:

Well, to really — they — they brought us around our food. They brought us — we didn't have a — a — really a lunchroom. They brought us a l — s — somebody just came around and distributed. They'd ask you what you wanted and you said, and they'd bring it to you. I don't remember going to any lunchroom there. It was only at — when I started working with the Navy group that I remember. But it was all a part of government naval work.

SIGRIST:

Were you allowed to walk anywhere you wanted to?

WILLIAMS:

In Ellis Island?

SIGRIST:

Yes.

WILLIAMS:

Absolutely not. No. No, but we did catch signs, you know, of the — them grouped together, huddled in little places. You know, if I might stop a minute, when I walked into Ellis Island the other day and instead of taking that great stairway up, there were elevators. And as you got out, we were grouped in front of a big motion picture camera. And they started showing some of the scenes, and they were so familiar to me. You know? They were so familiar to me because I had seen visions of this when I would — when we would go there, because we were nosy, you know, and you'd go to a place like that and you know what it's supposed to be. Then you're always sticking your head and, you know, when the man wasn't looking, when the cop wasn't there.

SIGRIST:

You said you saw immigrants.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, I saw it. I saw it. I saw it. And you know, when people have to come away like they came away — you know, when they came up from the South up here they used the underground, which was in a way just as bad.

SIGRIST:

They were just a different kind of immigrant.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, they were the original immigrants.

SIGRIST:

Tell me — tell me a little more about your experience at Ellis Island. Did you have to wear a uniform?

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

What did you wear to work?

WILLIAMS:

Anything that I wanted.

SIGRIST:

Which was what at that time?

WILLIAMS:

Like I got on now.

SIGRIST:

You have a — a dark skirt and a white blouse.

WILLIAMS:

Yes. Oh, I could wear a nice summer dress that — when it was summer, nice, cool dress, because they had no s — no cooling system over there. And then you would get hot. We had no fans.

SIGRIST:

You mentioned you were sitting on a stool.

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Did you have a desk of some sort?

WILLIAMS:

No. We only worked with the files.

SIGRIST:

So you were placed in front of the cabinets.

WILLIAMS:

Yes, we were placed in a section, just like this section. All the walls — but it was bigger than this. All the walls were filled with files. They must have been compiling that file when they came to the conclusion that they needed a — a — a more accurate record of immigrants. See, everything was going to heck. No —

SIGRIST:

You mentioned — I'm sorry. Go ahead.

WILLIAMS:

No — no work was possible. The men were working for eight and nine dollars a week.

SIGRIST:

And what were the women working for?

WILLIAMS:

Twenty-five cents an hour but at housework.

SIGRIST:

Doing housework, yeah.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah. [chuckles]

SIGRIST:

You mentioned Mr. Anderson earlier. He was sort of the supervisor?

WILLIAMS:

Yes, he was the supervisor. He's a great big Swede.

SIGRIST:

Swede.

WILLIAMS:

But he was nice.

SIGRIST:

W — well, do you have specific memories of him, maybe —

WILLIAMS:

He was — he was — he w — he had hair something like yours. And he was tall but he was nice. He was nice. He seemed to have regard for — for his workers, because he would, you know, tell us things nice and he wouldn't snap if you made an error. But Mr. Anderson, he was there and he never said much. I suppose he couldn't. You know, government work is always secret.

SIGRIST:

Did they offer you, for instance, during the holidays, some kind of a Christmas party at Ellis Island?

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

Anything like that?

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

No?

WILLIAMS:

No, man! As they would say now. [chuckles] No.

SIGRIST:

Did you ever — did you ever experience any kind of prejudice because you had a WPA job at that time?

WILLIAMS:

No, no. At that time, that was a — that's — was a preferential job. That showed that you had brains.

SIGRIST:

How did your parents —

WILLIAMS:

[laughs]

SIGRIST:

— feel about you having that job?

WILLIAMS:

Well, my father had coached me to be just that type of a worker. I never worked in a factory. And I didn't s — didn't get married until I was 28 because I went to school.

SIGRIST:

So it was — it was a — it was a privilege to have a WPA job.

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh.

WILLIAMS:

The only thing, if your husband was out of work he had to dig the streets, and maybe your husband didn't want to dig the streets. [chuckles] Oh, boy, boy.

SIGRIST:

What about — did you ever, at Ellis Island, experience any kind of prejudice because you're African American? When you worked at the WPA system?

WILLIAMS:

No, I r — I really didn't because I hadn't began to feel the stigma of being a Negro. You know, when I was in Massachusetts I didn't know I was a Negro, not until I was going to high school. And then I found out very rudely that I was black.

SIGRIST:

And how did that make you feel when you found that out?

WILLIAMS:

I cried all the way home and asked my mother, "Ma, why am I a Negro? What is a Negro?" She said, "Don't worry about it." She says, "Your skin can be as white as snow but you can be a Negro — Negro in your actions and in your manner." She says, "A Negro is something that's bad." [sentence unclear]. And you want to know how I found that out?

SIGRIST:

Yes.

WILLIAMS:

I was in the basement of a high school gym and my best friend was a white girl and I didn't know it. You know, I know she was very, very pretty. She used to come home with me for lunch. And a girlfriend of hers once said to her, "Why do you walk home with a nigger?" And so that's what I — well, that's when I wanted to know from my mother what a nigger was. But anyway, we got over that.

SIGRIST:

Did you ever, with some of your coworkers, when you worked at the WPA, like at Ellis Island on Visi Street?

WILLIAMS:

No, no.

SIGRIST:

Did any of your coworkers ever —

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

— call you names —

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

— or anything?

WILLIAMS:

Because I tell you what, the WPA was made up of such a mixture. You could be a professional worker but you just happened to be out of luck, and you didn't have any other job so you took it. You dug street and you built all the roads upstate. You were born too late, my son, to know.

SIGRIST:

Is there anything else about your experience at Ellis Island that you would like to tell me that sticks out in your mind about that experience?

WILLIAMS:

You know, I used to love riding to that — Ellis Island on that ferry. The water would be choppy sometimes and I'd have to sit up there. They — I didn't — the other day I had to sit downstairs. I couldn't get upstairs. Why is it they don't let you upstairs now?

SIGRIST:

Well, we should say for the sake of the tape that you just recently visited the Ellis Island Museum. That's —

WILLIAMS:

Uh-huh.

SIGRIST:

— where we located you —

WILLIAMS:

Oh, oh.

SIGRIST:

— [unclear].

WILLIAMS:

Oh.

SIGRIST:

Because the boats are very big and crowded that go back and forth. There were probably people up there already. The — the boats that go over there —

WILLIAMS:

Oh, yeah, because when they — when the boat landed, I saw that there were people standing upstairs. But we went in and we sat downstairs. And I — one — one end was a ice cream and candies and things like that. I had an ice cream cone. It was about a five-tier ice cream cone. [chuckles]

SIGRIST:

Well, o — one through that occurs to me that has come up in other interviews that I've done with people who worked at Ellis Island around the same time that you did —

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

There was a big hurricane that hit the New York area in the late 1930s.

WILLIAMS:

1938.

SIGRIST:

Do you have — do you have any memories connected with Ellis Island about that hurricane?

WILLIAMS:

No, no, no.

SIGRIST:

You had talked —

WILLIAMS:

The only thing that was, we didn't know it was a hurricane. We thought it was just a thunderstorm. We didn't know it was a hurricane. We didn't know what a hurricane was. They had never had one up here.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember where you were when it happened?

WILLIAMS:

No, no. I don't.

SIGRIST:

You said before the interview started that you thought that you worked at Ellis Island from 1935 to 1938.

WILLIAMS:

To 1938.

SIGRIST:

And then you told me a little bit later —

WILLIAMS:

B —

SIGRIST:

— that you got the job at the Navy Yard in 1941.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

What happened between 1938 and 1941?

WILLIAMS:

Well, I stayed home.

SIGRIST:

I see. So the WPA job ended in —

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

— '38.

WILLIAMS:

Th —

SIGRIST:

[unclear] —

WILLIAMS:

The WPA.

SIGRIST:

At Ellis Island.

WILLIAMS:

But when I went to the Navy Yard it was part of the WPA.

SIGRIST:

But there was a — there was a —

WILLIAMS:

A separation [unclear].

SIGRIST:

Yeah. You stopped working at one job and then it was a while before you started —

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

— working the other. I just wanted to be clear about that. Well, I think — I think, Mrs. Williams, that's it. I think you've done a wonderful job. You have some very interesting insight into — into what went on in — in your place in what went on. And I appreciate you letting me ask you these questions. This is Paul Sigrist signing off, Marie Williams, on Thursday, September 18, 1997 with Roger Herz and the kitten in attendance. And we're at the Bishop Francis Mugavero Center here in Brooklyn, New York. Thank you.

WILLIAMS:

Uh-hmm. [END OF INTERVIEW]