APPEL:

This is Willa Appel, I'm speaking with Jeanette Gropper on Friday, February 7th, 1986. We're beginning the interview at about 10:10 and we're talking about Mrs. Gropper's experience of emigrating from Russia in 1914 at the age of six. Maybe we could begin the conversation by my asking you about where you were born and what town it was, and what that was like.

GROPPER:

I was born in Chodorkov in the southern part of Russia. It's near Kiev. As a child I grew up in primitive living conditions. What I would call primitive now.

APPEL:

In what way?

GROPPER:

We still brought water from the well, uh, to the home, and put it in barrels, and in the wintertime the water would freeze, and we had to chop the ice to get the water. I have described the kitchen in the class I took at Emeritus College, and it's quite unique because we had a brick oven, also, a cauldron in the kitchen to heat water for the business. My mother was in the business of doing the laundry for the feudal lords and ladies who lived in Chodorkov. And that was the way she earned a living.

APPEL:

And do you have memories of that? You were a very small child.

GROPPER:

Yes, I do. I have memories of the kitchen, the table on which the food was prepared, and a tub filled with water which accumulated the garbage as we used the facilities. When my grandfather came, he slept in a little loft above the oven which was very warm for him. I also remember the deep snows and the, uh, the warehouse behind our property which was used to store grain, and the yard was used as a butchering place for geese and chickens which were raised in that yard.

APPEL:

Your mother, was it your mother's business to do the laundry?

GROPPER:

Yes.

APPEL:

Did that mean that in the winter she had to haul the water and chop the ice?

GROPPER:

We had people who worked for us, and they would bring the water, and they would also bring food from the surrounding farmlands. Like churned butter or raw milk. She was the one that I remember. I do not have any memory of my father at all because he died when I was nine months old.

APPEL:

So you were very, very young?

GROPPER:

I was very young, and my brothers also helped in the business.

APPEL:

How many siblings did you have and where were you in relation to the other children?

GROPPER:

I was the youngest of ten. Five brothers--(telephone rings)

APPEL:

So just to get back. Was your grandfather or was any of your family in the farming business? Did they raise the grain and the animals?

GROPPER:

No, they were the people who bought the grain from the peasants and resold it. My father, who was the tax-collector, that was before I was born, and he collected the taxes from the population and turned it over to the lord who was the head of the village.

APPEL:

And you were born in 1908? Is that correct?

GROPPER:

Right.

APPEL:

What made your family decide to emigrate to America?

GROPPER:

Uh, there were rumors of wars coming. My mother had sent my oldest brother. She, I guess I'm incriminating her. She smuggled him out of the army and sent him over to the United States. Then she tried to get the other boys, the boys were all the older ones, as they became of conscription age, she tried to get them out of the country. And she was successful of getting three of them out.

APPEL:

Do you know how she did it?

GROPPER:

No I don't.. I just know it was through surreptitious methods. She paid off people who were able to smuggle them out. And then they came to the United States and settle here.

APPEL:

What was the specific time or moment that precipitated her decision to come to the United States?

GROPPER:

In about, oh I guess it must have been about 1912, she heard that there were, that there was going to be a war. Especially between Germany and Russia. And she decided it was time to her other two sons out of the way, and the only way she could do it was to emigrate, to take, there were the three of us girls left, the youngest ones, and the two boys. So she, uh, was able to sell her possessions, her property, which had been in my uncle's name because women were not allowed to own property. And she managed to contact him, and got him to sign the papers so she could sell all her property.

APPEL:

He was in the United States?

GROPPER:

My uncle?

APPEL:

Yes.

GROPPER:

No, he was a civil engineer in Russia.

APPEL:

Oh, he was in Russia? But he was clearly not living in the town that you were in?

GROPPER:

Not the town that we were in, therefore it took her a long time to get to the place where she could move, because with every time she sold something, she had to go find him. And he was usually working in some forest or in another town, and she had to contact him to get his permission to sell.

APPEL:

Was your mother unusual in her determination to make sure her sons were not conscripted?

GROPPER:

My mother was very determined. She was a very brave person because in traveling, she had to go by horsecart, by wagon, any means of transportation, and there were no other means of getting anywhere. She had to go by boat or by horse and wagon.

APPEL:

But was there any particular reason she felt strongly that she didn't want her sons to go into the army?

GROPPER:

She was afraid for their future. And being in the army wasn't very conducive to happiness for them or for they family they left. I had one brother who became an officer in the Russian army, and beyond that he couldn't go very much further, and when she heard that there was going to be a war, she wanted him especially out. And she managed to get him out of the army.

APPEL:

She sounds very unusual.

GROPPER:

She was a heroine if there ever was one.

APPEL:

And how did you actually leave, do you remember the arrangements to leave your town?

GROPPER:

I remember the packing and the arrangements to leave were also by horse and wagon. The first stage of our trip was overland and horse and wagon, and then we got to Zhitomir, there we took the train.

APPEL:

Do you mind spelling both the names of your hometown and Zhitomir?

GROPPER:

I can spell Chodorkov but (she laughs) I don't know about Zhitomir. C-H-O-D-O-R-K-O-V.

APPEL:

And Zhitomir, do you know where it was?

GROPPER:

It was about, oh, 40 miles from the town where we lived. We were near Kiev, and Kiev was further than Zhitomir. So in miles I wouldn't know.

APPEL:

So you went to Zhitomir and there you took a train --

GROPPER:

Train to, uh, that connected Kiev, and from there we went by train, we were supposed to go to Germany.

APPEL:

So the exit port was to be Germany?

GROPPER:

The exit port was to be in Germany.

APPEL:

Do you remember anything about that trip, yourself?

GROPPER:

It was a very harrowing experience. We were on the train, on the border, July 16, 1914, when war was declared between Germany and Russia. And we happened to be on the bridge that connected them, when they bombed the bridge and our caboose, our compartments were over on the German side, when the back of the train was torn off. And when we got to Germany. German soldiers boarded the train and took us all captive. We were marched through the streets of Wien for a few hours and then we were put in a warehouse somewhere, it was cold and damp, and we spent the night there. And the following day we were again marched through the streets. The people of course were incited against Russia, and they spat at us, and threw rocks at us, and they marched us until evening, when we got to a prison, and there we, uh, we were left for six weeks, in that prison.

APPEL:

My God. What was that like?

GROPPER:

Well, we slept on mats, on the prison floor. We were fed the peels of potatoes, any of the remains of the food that was prepared for other people, we got. And as a treat, we got peelings from apples and pears. The Germans took all our valuables, even to pulling out the earrings from out ears, and my mother had all her money with her because she was traveling, and they took every bit of cash or paper money, anything, rings. And if you didn't give it up they beat you. It was a very traumatic experience.

APPEL:

That sounds terrible. Was the family, you were, your mother, your two older brothers--

GROPPER:

Two older sister that were immediately older, and the two brothers who were immediately older than they. All the boys were born first, and we were the last three children.

APPEL:

And was the family together in the prison, were you separated?

GROPPER:

No, they separated us. The boys were taken into one prison and we were taken to another. After much pleading, about a week after we were captive, captivated, they allowed my mother to see my brothers, although we weren't allowed to speak or touch them. And then they were taken back to their prison, but she knew that they were alive.

APPEL:

It's such a dramatic experience to be on a bridge when war is declared, have the bridge blown up just as you reached German soil, and have half the train or part of the train--

GROPPER:

Fell into the ravine in between.

APPEL:

And you were in this prison for six weeks?

GROPPER:

For six weeks.

APPEL:

Do you remember what your, were you aware of your mother's feelings or the conversations that would go on within your family at that time?

GROPPER:

Yes, I remember her tears and he pleading with the guards to let her see her sons. I happened to have a very bad toothache during the time we were there, and they were, one of the guards was kind enough to give us some liquor of some kind to hold in my mouth until the pain subsided. We were, I guess, model prisoners. We did what they demanded. I remember a woman who was pregnant, she was a Polish woman, and when her term was up, they took her and the little girl she had away and we never saw them again. I don't know what happened to them, I often wonder. I know her husband was put out as prison laborer in the fields. What happened to him, I don't know.

APPEL:

Were you with other people from your town?

GROPPER:

No, just all the people who were on the train with us. And I imagine there were about 20 or 25 of us.

APPEL:

And, the, being marched through the streets, I guess as, well as captors, and to be, as you described, reviled, sounds like that would be very terrifying, especially to a small child?

GROPPER:

It was. We were marched in line, and we had to keep in that line, and the man in front of me tried to break away, and he was shot in the head. and I can remember that.

APPEL:

What finally happened? How did you finally get released?

GROPPER:

Uh, it happened that my mother had sent money to my brothers in the States for them to buy our passage, and they did. So we had our passage from the United States, and our, that proved to them that we were going to be citizens and that my brothers would somehow be responsible for our arrival. And after six weeks we had, got a signed document from the Czar or the, I forget his name, and, he gave us permission to travel, but we could not depart from Germany. They transferred us from the prison to Amsterdam, Holland.

APPEL:

How did you get from the prison to Amsterdam?

GROPPER:

I really don't remember that.

APPEL:

You remember everything.

GROPPER:

I remember a lot but I don't remember how we got there.

APPEL:

But it was the entire family, the brothers as well?

GROPPER:

The brothers and my mother and my two sisters and I, we were transported to Amsterdam.

APPEL:

And so the permission to emigrate from the Czar or the Czar's representative, was something your mother had had before you set out originally?

GROPPER:

We had passports, yes. They had confiscated them, and finally returned them to us when we got to Amsterdam.

APPEL:

And were other prisoners released at the same time?

GROPPER:

I don't remember.

APPEL:

So you arrived in amsterdam and then what happened?

GROPPER:

That was the first time we were given food. The people in Amsterdam were very kind. We were in some sort of a dormitory, uh, sleeping arrangement, and I remember walking down, being allowed to walk out of where we, our dormitory, and it must have been market day. And we saw the people, they had their big dogs with their little wagons of food.

APPEL:

Big dogs?

GROPPER:

Dogs were hauling these--

APPEL:

Were hauling the carts?

GROPPER:

Carts. And we were given, we didn't have any money, we were given coconuts and candy and cookies. They gave them to us. And we spent about three days in Amsterdam.

APPEL:

It's a wonder, given what your diet was for those six weeks in the German prison, that you didn't become ill.

GROPPER:

My mother did. I guess, well, we had one thing. My mother had packed food in sort of wicker baskets and those were not taken away from us. So we did have goodies like jellies and the dark bread that the Germans gave us was made more palatable by eating what we had packed. That saw us through.

APPEL:

Uh, but it certainly sounds like that when you arrived in Holland it was a real liberation?

GROPPER:

It was. It was a real liberation.

APPEL:

And so, it was through the auspices of the Dutch Government that you were housed in a dormitory--

GROPPER:

Right.

APPEL:

And they made arrangements for your passage?

GROPPER:

Right. They made the arrangements and we were sent out of Holland on the Potsdam, in steerage. Originally, our tickets had been for first class. But we didn't get that (she laughs).

APPEL:

Do you remember the ship?

GROPPER:

Yes I do. My two sisters and my mother and I were in a little cubicle and they had berths, one on top of the other. We were all very seasick. We didn't care whether we ate, we didn't. My mother, especially, became very ill. And the stewards or whoever it was, used to come and beg her to get out of her bunk so that they could clean up, and neither she nor my older sister, who was about four years older than I was, would leave the bunks. My sister who was about eight, she an I would crawl out of our bunks and let them in to clean up. But the other two couldn't leave the bed. I don't remember anything about my brothers except that they came to visit my mother.

APPEL:

And when you and your sister would leave the bunks, where did you go?

GROPPER:

There were benches and tables where we were supposed to be fed but I don't remember much about the food.

APPEL:

How long was the trip?

GROPPER:

I imagine it was about 14 days.

APPEL:

And this was the end of the summer?

GROPPER:

Right. And we had one bad experience. It was explained to us later that there was an iceberg, and we were trying to avoid hitting the iceberg and there was a lot of commotion. But we didn't hit the iceberg, we all came through safely.

APPEL:

Uh, commotion of what type?

GROPPER:

Uh, excitement among the passengers, uh, fear, uh, a lot of loud praying because they knew we were in danger.

APPEL:

And were there other Russian travelers, were you able to communicate with other people on the ship?

GROPPER:

Not i, but my brothers did. But I couldn't, I didn't know enough to communicate. And I was too sick to care.

APPEL:

Do you remember arriving?

GROPPER:

That I remember. And when we got into waters that weren't turbulent, we were allowed to go out on deck.

APPEL:

We're going to break right here because we have to turn the tape over and then we'll pick up on the other side. This is the end of side one of the interview with Jeanette Gropper. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

APPEL:

This is the beginning of the second side of the interview with Jeanette Gropper. You were saying, Mrs. Gropper, that you remember arriving in the United States.

GROPPER:

I remember coming into the port, and we were allowed out on deck for the, to see the surroundings. And I remember them mingling with other prisoners, uh, those who had been prisoners.

APPEL:

Who were also on the ship?

GROPPER:

On the ship. And one thing that frightened me was the big lice that were crawling all over them. They hadn't had any means of keeping clean, and they, uh, lice, we were deloused after we got into Ellis Island.

APPEL:

Were you a prisoner on the ship?

GROPPER:

We were so frightened from our experience that I guess we made ourselves prisoners, when we were afraid to move, afraid to go anywhere.

APPEL:

And when you say you were allowed on deck, when you arrived, had you not been allowed on deck before that?

GROPPER:

They probably would have allowed us, had we felt well enough to go on deck. They wanted us to go on deck but we clung to our little safe spot. The place we knew, where they had put us.

APPEL:

And when you arrived in the harbor, did you, were you aware of the Statue of Liberty?

GROPPER:

I was aware of surroundings I had never seen before. Tall buildings, other ships. I couldn't truthfully say that I was aware of the Statue.

APPEL:

And what was your feeling or impression at seeing these new sights?

GROPPER:

It was frightening, uh, different, and I clung to my brothers who were on deck, and of course, you must remember, we were badly frightened of any badge or uniform that we saw. And so we had to be almost coerced to go where they wanted us to go.

APPEL:

Yes, you were saying a moment before, you were saying about the prison in Germany, that you would hear other prisoners--

GROPPER:

Being brought in at night, and there was loud screaming and crying. It was all very frightening. The good part I remember, is that they would allow us to go out into the yard to exercise and then we were put back in our cell.

APPEL:

You had also earlier said that you were model prisoners, uh, and that you did everything that you were asked to do, uh, and you indicated that perhaps the Polish prisoners were treated worse than you were?

GROPPER:

I thought so, uh, from just my childish point of view. I thought that the woman that had her little girl with her and who was pregnant, I thought that she was treated rather roughly. We were all treated roughly but if we obeyed, they didn't bother us.

APPEL:

So the treatment didn't have anything to do with the fact that they had taken a lot of money from you?

GROPPER:

No, we were treated as prisoners.

APPEL:

Going back to your arrival in the United States, you then left the ship?

GROPPER:

Yes, we were taken by a launch or a smaller boat to shore and we walked, what seemed to me, like a wooden bridge into the big building that was Ellis Island.

APPEL:

And what was the experience there?

GROPPER:

Uh, the experience was very encouraging. We were treated with what seemed to us like love. We were taken into this building, and we were told to go to the showers or what seemed to us like showers, and we were allowed to wash our bodies and our clothes. And then we were assigned to bunks in dormitories, and I can remember the evening meal. We were brought to this place where there were long tables and benches, and on the table was food. Big fish, and we all rejoiced because we hadn't seen food for a long time. But it wasn't the type of food we were accustomed to. It had no spices or anything else, except boiled potatoes with it and bread. And we were allowed to eat as much as we wanted.

APPEL:

And you were assigned to a dormitory?

GROPPER:

Yes.

APPEL:

How long were you on Ellis Island?

GROPPER:

I don't remember exactly but I think it was about three or four days.

APPEL:

Do you know why you were detained on Ellis Island?

GROPPER:

They wanted us to see, what we determined, was a judge. He was a person who would question us, uh, the one that questioned me, asked me how old I was, where I came from, who made the little sweater I was wearing, and did I know how to count, and, could I speak another language. At that time I could speak Russian and Yiddish, and we conversed mostly in Yiddish.

APPEL:

Was there a translator who asked the questions?

GROPPER:

No, this was the person we called, "The Judge." He was the one who questioned us in the language we understood, Yiddish. And after the interview with me, uh, some lady came along and gave me a doll with a beautiful china head, and I was very much impressed but I wasn't too careful with it because the same day I dropped it and the doll broke.

APPEL:

Do you remember how you answered the inspector's questions?

GROPPER:

Yes. When he asked me my name, I gave him my name, I told him how old I was. He also asked me who made the sweater that I was wearing and I answered that my Aunt Pessel had made it for me, and he wanted to know where Pessel was, and I told him, "Pessel remained in Russia, she couldn't come with us." And he wanted to know who I was coming to see, and I told him we were coming to see my brother, I remembered my brother's name because we had had letters from him. And that's about the end of the interview with him.

APPEL:

Do you know who the lady was who gave you the doll?

GROPPER:

No, she was a worker, I imagine a social worker of some kind.

APPEL:

And do you know why she gave you the doll?

GROPPER:

She gave everyone a little gift after the interview. And I was the one to receive it. I had one saddening experience in the, at Ellis Island. There was a grandmother there with a little boy, and she was being detained because the little boy couldn't count. He was about my age, and the grandmother pleaded with me to teach him how to count. And I was very sad when he wouldn't learn, and I don't know whether he was detained and returned to the old country or whether he finally was passed.

APPEL:

They were also Russian?

GROPPER:

They were also Russian. One frightening experience on coming into Ellis Island, they passed us through a line and people were examining us. And one of these people we passed was a Negro, and it was the first time I had ever seen a Black man. And also, they looked at us, I guess they were examining us for health reasons, and my oldest, older brother had a, who had been very ill aboard the Potsdam, was sort of yellowish in color from having been so sick. And one of the men who, uh, with, in front of whom we passed, mad a chalk mark on his lapel, and that frightened my mother, and she came over and she rubbed the chalk mark off with her sleeve. And he told her she couldn't do that. And he made the chalk mark again. I guess it was because they wanted to examine him physically, so he was marked. And the rest of us passed the inspection.

APPEL:

So, you were on Ellis Island for a number of days, and you slept in dormitories--

GROPPER:

Right.

APPEL:

Your overall feeling about being on Ellis Island was one of fear or one of being protected?

GROPPER:

One, well, from fear we went to feeling of being protected because everyone treated us so well. And we were given food, uh, we were served food at big, at rooms where we ate, and we were allowed to keep clean, and we were given fruit which we hadn't seen in a long time. So that we, from fear, we went to a feeling of being wanted, and we weren't harassed.

APPEL:

And you were there several days, then, what next occurred?

GROPPER:

The next was, we were given papers, my mother was given papers, uh, which I imagine were her passports and other tickets for a train. And we were put on the train for Pittsburgh. And I don't know how long the journey too but it wasn't too long before we arrived in Pittsburgh. And we were met by my, an uncle of mine who had, my mother's sister's husband. And we were taken by streetcar to this place, to my brother's home. And he lived in the hill district. It was a very poor home, but it was home.

APPEL:

Was the streetcar new to you? GROPPER? Very new. We had never gone on a streetcar before. We had always traveled by horse and wagon before.

APPEL:

What was your impression of this new city?

GROPPER:

The streetcar made me sick. I got car sick (she laughs) but it was so very new, we had never lived in Tenement arrangement before. And, it was all so overwhelming. And then for the first time, I met my oldest brother who I didn't know at all because he had left home before I was born. And we met his wife and baby. My nephew was about two years or three years old, and we were allowed to play together. And another new thing was living up on the top floor of the tenement, it was the third floor. That was new. And after that, my brothers rented room, a room or two, uh not far from where my brother lived and from then on we were on our own.

APPEL:

Your brother was in his twenties at that time? How much older was he?

GROPPER:

Oh he was in his late twenties. And then I had a brother two years younger than that, and another brother four years younger than that. They were all here in the United States.

APPEL:

And I'm a little confused. I thought you had first said there were ten children?

GROPPER:

Right.

APPEL:

Uh, then something must have happened to two sisters.

GROPPER:

One, my oldest sister, one of my oldest, of the first group of children that were born, uh she died six months after my father died. And my mother also had a little boy who died as an infant. So, we had, we had had ten.. Then there were, there was period of eight years, when my father was ill, that there were no children, and then three of us little girls came along. So we were quite, uh, a good deal younger than the youngest brother.

APPEL:

Did you go to school soon after you arrived in Pittsburgh?

GROPPER:

Yes, we got here in September, and the semester had started, and then one of my sister-in-laws, took us, the three of us to school, and registered us. It was the Miller School on Miller Avenue. They immediately put the oldest girl in the second or third grade, and my sister, just older than I was, we were put in the first grade, together. And we were allowed to sit together. It was very difficult because we couldn't communicate. The teacher in the first grade decided that my older sister was not to sit with me anymore, and she put her in another part of the room. And, of course, I objected and started to cry because she was the only one I could speak to. And the teacher didn't understand that I was clinging to my sister for protection, and she told, she said something to me, and I hadn't had the day or two in school, and I saw her put one of the boys who wasn't obeying, she put him under the table. And when she spoke in a loud voice to me, and pointed, I thought she meant for me to go under the table, so I did. And that infuriated her, and she dragged me out, and she took a ruler and hit me over the knuckles and put me back in the seat that she wanted me to sit. That was a very bad experience, in the first grade.

APPEL:

I can imagine. Uh, she remained your teacher for that first year?

GROPPER:

She remained the teacher until the end of the term, which was, of course, in February. And then my older sister was promoted on to another room, and I remained in her room for another semester. But by that time I had learned to speak English, and I could understand, and I had learned the routine of the classroom. I had never been in a classroom before.

APPEL:

And did you get along with the other children? Sometimes they made fun of immigrant children.

GROPPER:

Oh yes they did. They called us "greenhorns," and harassed us at recess time. Uh, but, you got, after learning to speak, it became easier to be with other children, and of course children make friends easily.

APPEL:

Were you dressed in European clothes, or American clothes?

GROPPER:

We were dressed in what we had until my sister-in-law was able to get to go out and buy us some American clothes, and until my mother got acquainted with the going out to shop and but things. Uh, the money, of course, came from my brothers. They went out and found work, and I think their first salaries were about five or six dollars a week. But, then we were able to get along on what they made.

APPEL:

Where did they work?

GROPPER:

They had had the experience of being in the cleaning business, laundry, and cleaning, and dyeing, which had been my mother's occupation. They had learned that, so they got jobs in cleaning and dyeing establishments, and they learned to be pressers, and do the cleaning with gasoline, or whatever, I think, whatever they used in the shop.

APPEL:

Did your mother work as well?

GROPPER:

No, my mother became an invalid, and most of the time she wasn't able to do very much. They, we, we'd come home from school, and do the chores that needed to be done, do the shopping that needed to be done. She probably had a heart condition, but we didn't know that.

APPEL:

You had a very difficult time?

GROPPER:

Yes.

APPEL:

Uh, so your brothers really, and your brothers' families really kind of took care of you?

GROPPER:

Yes, they helped us financially with a dollar or two a week, as much as they could afford to give us, until the two younger boys could earn enough so that my mother didn't need to accept anymore money from the very oldest ones, who had their own families.

APPEL:

So your brothers, did they finish school, or did they go out to work?

GROPPER:

They went to night school to learn the language, and to learn what education was offered to them at that time. And they were very ambitious for themselves, and for the family. And then after awhile we, as we grew older, we went out to work, my three sisters and I. I was eleven years old and I went to the five and ten cent store and told them I was fourteen. And so I got a job for Saturdays. And in that way we kept the household.

APPEL:

And you were so young when you left Russia. I wonder if you had had any idea or any anticipation of what America was going to be like?

GROPPER:

None whatsoever, none. We had a little education, that is in, I knew the Russian alphabet, and I could read a little Russian. We spoke a little Russian until we learned English, and then we dropped it. We didn't speak Russian anymore. We spoke Yiddish to my mother, and she would answer us in Yiddish of course. And later, she learned to, have us to speak English to her and she would answer in Yiddish.

APPEL:

So your mother lived for quite a while?

GROPPER:

She lived until I was ten.

APPEL:

Not very long.

GROPPER:

Not very long.

APPEL:

So, at the time you all were eleven and went to work in a five and dime, the family, the head of the family were your brothers?

GROPPER:

My brothers, yes. And then gradually as the older one married, and he had his own family, and we lived with my younger brother, until we were grown up.

APPEL:

Well, it's a fascinating story, thank you very much.

GROPPER:

Thank you for listening.

APPEL:

Okay, I was just saying that it sounds like you had a very hard time?

GROPPER:

Yes we did. But we didn't consider it hard. We were very happy to be in the United States, where we were free to do what we wanted. You were, you had asked me--

APPEL:

Yes, I was saying that it sounded like, uh, even though you were young, and you wouldn't have that much perspective. That in Russia, your mother had a business, she had managed to save money, you were planning on coming, you would have gone first class, if war had not broken out--

GROPPER:

My father had been the oldest son of his father and when his father died, he was given, he was left with property. Uh, houses, warehouses, and the business he had started. That was all left to my mother when my father died. Of course, he didn't leave it to her directly, he left it to her in her brother's name, and she sold all that, so she had the money to travel, and to leave Russia.

APPEL:

Thanks very much.

GROPPER:

You're welcome.

APPEL:

This is the end of the interview with Jeanette Gropper.