APPLEBOME:

This is interview number 18. This is Edward Applebome, and I'm speaking with Donald Roberts on Thursday, August 15, 1985. We are beginning this interview at 10:35 in the morning. We are about to interview Mr. Roberts about his immigration experience from Wales in 1925. Mr. Roberts, could you tell us a little bit about where and when you were born and what life was like in your native country of Wales?

ROBERTS:

Well, I was born in a mining village in, in Wales in April of 1913. Uh, the world war, the First World War was about to erupt but, of course, I had no knowledge of that at the time except that as time went on we became, uh, very cognizant of some of the things that were happening. For example, food was very short and we, as small kids, used to rummage in the street for anything we could find like a piece of orange skin or anything like that. And the, uh, village, as most of the other places there in the country had allotted by the government a certain amount of ground where people could grow limited amount of vegetables. So that's the way we survived. And, uh, I remember as a young boy going to school to be, uh, covered with a lot of sores on the surface of the skin which, uh, my mother would put some kind of ointment on and, uh, we thought nothing of it. We thought this was just part and, part and parcel of growing up and living but, of course, it was due to malnutrition. So the war took a terrible toll in Britain of, uh, men, because there was such slaughter that even, I think, exceeded in some ways the, uh, casualties of the second World War. But after the war was over my father, who was a captain in the, uh, forces, uh, decided that he should try to come to America to better the lot of the family. He had been employed, prior to the war, as a small building contractor and he, uh, had, uh, carried on that business and at the same time he and another man owned a, a funeral service, which seems to be a very strange thing. But in those days, uh, these kinds of things happened. So my father left home and came to America and left my mother and myself, my younger brother and two younger sisters, uh, so that he could sort of pave the way, uh, for us to come to America. We were put on a quota list and, uh, our name never seemed to come up to be allowed to come. My father was in this country for about three or almost four years. He had bought a house in the meanwhile on Staten Island and when it was to come, but we never could get through the, uh, rigmarole of the red tape. So my father came back and decided that was it. But after he was back for a while and he saw what the conditions were again there and the prodding from my mother, who was interested to come, too, our name finally came up on the quota list and they sold the house, the furniture, uh, packed some things in wooden boxes, and off we went to Southampton, which was where the ship left. Uh, the ship was the Aquitania. And, uh, we left, uh, as far as I remember, the latter part of April, or early part of May, and we took seven days to arrive in New York.

APPLEBOME:

Do you remember what your feelings were about leaving Wales?

ROBERTS:

Well, the feelings were mixed. Leaving my friends, I was twelve years old at the time and, uh, but coming to a new country, uh, excited us, as kids. Uh, but we had mixed emotions because we were coming to a new country not knowing what was ahead of us but, uh, I think the excitement over, uh, overwhelmed the other, uh, thoughts we might have and, uh, it wasn't until we were here a while that we realized what a big break we had made and became very homesick.

APPLEBOME:

What had you heard about the United States before coming over?

ROBERTS:

Well, the only thing we had heard was, uh, that, uh, economic conditions were much better in this country. There was an opportunity for people to advance themselves more rapidly than, uh, you, you could in Britain. Uh, the opportunities there were very limited. The weather wasn't all that good and, uh, so these were the things, but I think particularly the economic aspects of it was what motivated my parents to want to better our lot. So we came across. Now my, uh, recollections of the trip over on the ship. The ship was very crowded. Uh, we had picked up in Conditions a lot of people from southern Europe and middle Europe and this was our first contact with what we called foreigners. Uh, the, uh, the ship, of course, was Cunard ship, was a British ship and we had no problem there. But the ship was, uh, very crowded with people. Uh, we had a small cabin for six of us. And we managed pretty good. Uh, we were restricted where we could no, naturally, because we weren't in the first or second class. We were in the third class passage and we used to go out on the after deck of the vessel for air and people, of course, were laying around, uh, any place they could find to, uh, stay out in the open air rather than get back in the stifling conditions inside the ship. But, uh, all in all, my recollections of the passage were fine. There's one very interesting aspect that I will always remember, was, uh, a horse that was being carried over, uh, from Europe, which happened to be the famous horse, Tony. He was the horse of Tom Mix, the movie star. When we were kids in Wales we could go to the cinema usually on a Saturday afternoon and watch the cowboy pictures. And, of course, there would be a hero and another guy with a black hat. And I, I can remember some of us kids, uh, these would be serials, you know, and when you come to a certain exciting point it was continued next week. So you couldn't wait until next week to go back and see what was gonna happen. But, uh, sometimes we would throw things at the screen ( he laughs ) if we didn't like the guy that, uh, who was doing whatever. So Tom Mix was always the hero. He and another fellow by the name of Dustin Farnum and a couple of other people that I can't remember the names of now. But these were the heroes. And Tom Mix's horse, Tony, was I guess what Trigger would be in a, in a later generation. And they used to bring this horse out on the deck, let him walk around, and get a little exercise because they had him in a big wooden box in, in the rear deck. And, uh, some of us kids had our picture taken on Tony's back. Uh, those pictures are gone, I don't know what happened to them, but they are in my memory anyway. So, uh, we arrived in New York. And, uh . . .

APPLEBOME:

Is there anything else you can say about the trip over? Did you, did you keep your, your food down, what were the spirits of your family?

ROBERTS:

Yes, yes. The, uh, voyage wasn't rough. Uh, there wasn't any problem in that area. Uh, there were certain restrictions we had, like, uh, I remember my father had to make arrangements with the bath steward for us to be able to take one or two baths on the way. It had to be regimented that way, you know. We didn't have any facility other than the small cabin we were in. And, uh, but that was, that was okay, there was no problem there. And, uh, from, we had been living not under austere conditions in Wales, but, uh, we weren't used to any luxuries. So it didn't bother us that much.

APPLEBOME:

And what was your impression of seeing people from other countries?

ROBERTS:

Well, I was bewildered and, uh, I was afraid of them and I tried to stay away from them as much as I could because they were entirely different type of people. Of course they, uh, some of them were dressed very shabbily and spoke languages that didn't mean anything to us, and, uh, they were different breed of people, you might say. So we didn't associate with them. We just had any contracts with English-speaking people. So, uh, we arrived in New York Harbor and, uh, we had a cursory, uh, medical examination right there on the ship.

APPLEBOME:

Can you tell me what you remember, if anything, about coming into the harbor itself? What time of year was it?

ROBERTS:

It was in, uh, early May and, uh, the ships at that time used to stop at quarantine, uh, which was, uh, in the outer harbor, uh, before you came into the Narrows. And all the ships used to stop there and they used to put up the quarantine flag, the yellow flag, until the ship was cleared to come into the inner Harbor. So, uh, I'm familiar with that because later on I, I was in the American Merchant Marine, so I know something about that, but that didn't mean anything to me at the time. So, uh, there was an awful lot of confusion there. Uh, people all lined up and getting a very sketchy examination. But the result of that examination required us to be transported to Ellis Island. My mother was taken away and isolated in a hospital area because she was suspected of having tuberculosis. So my father and us four kids were kept in a separate area along with all the other people who were there for various reasons, who weren't being allowed to come into the country without some kind of a problem. So we, uh, my father and us kids, were given, uh, what I would consider now VIP treatment because we were put into a very small little room and, uh, we lived in that room. There were just a few bunks in there. And we weren't in with all the other people that were milling around and it was just like a zoo there. Uh, what I remember about it, um, the, the place smelled of disinfectant like the hospitals used to. There was a man that came around every morning and every afternoon, about ten o'clock in the morning and three o'clock in the afternoon, with a stainless steel cart, sort of like a Good Humor cart. And the man was dressed in white and he had warm milk for the kids. And, uh, they would blow a whistle and ring a bell and all the kids would line up and he had small little paper cups and he had a dipper, and every kid got a little milk, warm milk. Uh, so that was one thing that sticks in my mind. Another thing is that we were, uh, in order to have some kind of system, I suppose, everything had to be done by the numbers. Uh, they would blow a whistle or signify in some other way, sometimes it would be a gong, when it was time for meals. And, uh, we would then walk down these, seemed to me endless, corridors, all with white tile on the sides. Down and around and finally we come into a big hall and this big hall had long wooden tables and benches. And, uh, the waiters would come out and put the food on the table and that was really something. I can remember especially the breakfasts. Because that shook us up every day we were there. Uh, the breakfasts were invariably eggs and the eggs were, uh, cooked in big wire baskets and they would bring these wire baskets and set them on the table. And before they'd be on the table these people, these, these southern Europeans and whatever, we thought they were savages because they, they acted like that. They'd be grabbing these eggs and breaking them open, and egg yolk would be running down their faces. And we were brought up to wait until everybody was ready to eat and so on. And we just couldn't adjust to that situation, you know. It was, it was a bizarre thing. I, I really, I really was shocked, and even when I think of it now I think, my goodness, it gives me the shivers, sometimes I think of it. And they would, they would take bread almost from under your nose and snatch the stuff away from you. It was very, very bad experience. Uh, not that we went hungry, we ate somewhere along the line, but that was the sum and substance of what our table etiquette was and what we had to put up with. Then, uh, everybody, they had an assembly of people who were all marched into a big hall. And there they would announce those who are being released into the country, and those who are going to be still detained, and those who are going to be deported. And you can imagine what went on there. The screaming and the hollering. Oh, it was something.

APPLEBOME:

Who would make those announcements?

ROBERTS:

Well, the officials were up on a platform and, uh, these people would all be segregated then by, uh, category. If they were going into the country, or whatever.

APPLEBOME:

Do you remember which room it was in?

ROBERTS:

Oh, the great big hall.

APPLEBOME:

It was the Great Hall.

ROBERTS:

It was a big, a big room. A great, big place, looked like a railway station almost, you know. Now, um, during the days that we were waiting there we would be let out in the morning and the afternoon for an hour or so to get some exercise in the yard. And the yard had a high fence about fifteen feet high, a wire fence. And once in a while we could look across the way and we could see my mother at the window of the, of the hospital. It was, oh, I guess, it was about five or six stories high, something like that, the building there. And she would wave to us kids and my father. And, of course, we could see everything going on in the Harbor. And, uh, that's how the days went by.

APPLEBOME:

You could see the Statue of Liberty each day?

ROBERTS:

Yeah, of course, yeah, because, you know, that's very close to.

APPLEBOME:

Right.

ROBERTS:

So, uh, the days went by and, uh, ultimately my mother was released. Uh, she had no tuberculosis, but she had always suffered with bronchitis. And she had that as long as I can remember her and my mother died at eighty-nine, not too many years ago. And, and that isn't what killed her, but anyway that's, that was the reason for her early.

APPLEBOME:

Other than looking across the water towards her you didn't see her for the entire two weeks.

ROBERTS:

No, no. Once in a great while, we all looked up at the windows, you see. And I guess she must have known when we would be let out and, because there was time schedules, it wasn't haphazard thing. And we would see her waving at the window, at a long distance away, you know. We couldn't see her up close. So, my father took care of us kids and, uh, when the day came that we were allowed to come into the country, uh, that was a real banner day.

APPLEBOME:

Did you realize there was a possibility that you would be sent back?

ROBERTS:

Of course, of course. My father had prepared us for that. And, uh, that must have been a very traumatic thing for people who actually were sent back because if they cut off their ties like we had, my father had sold all the furniture, sold the house, uh, there was nothing to go back to. To start over again, you see. But, of course, with all the people that were trying to come into the country, there were people with criminal records and whatnot. They had to sort the wheat from the chaff, I guess as best they could. So there were many people who were sent back, I don't know how many, but there were quite a few, I know, because every day there was this commotion going on.

APPLEBOME:

Did you or your brothers and sisters make any friends while you were on the Island for those two weeks?

ROBERTS:

No, no. No, we, we kept to ourselves there. We were very glad to have this little hole to, uh, stay in and not get involved with these other people because we didn't fit. So, uh . . .

APPLEBOME:

There weren't other English-speaking people at the time on the Island?

ROBERTS:

Uh, there must have been but not that I, not that I was aware of. The, by far the predominant number of people were from, uh, central Europe or southern Europe. Dressed in, to us, very strange clothes. Whatever manners they had didn't certainly jive with what we were accustomed to.

APPLEBOME:

Were there any social services that you can remember?

ROBERTS:

No, I, I don't remember any such thing. The, the only amenity that I can remember is having the milk man come around with his, uh, warm milk and he had a stainless steel cart. Uh, when, when, uh, people were allowed to come into the country they were, uh, designated to go through a certain area. You, you were sort of channeled in certain ways. And there was no way of sneaking out or breaking into anything that wasn't an orderly sort of arrangement, so we all went down, uh, through this wired-in area and got on a ferry boat. The ferry boat ran back and forth from, uh, there to the Battery. And there we just walked off just like letting the birds out of the cage.

APPLEBOME:

If I can back you up for one second. Do you remember the announcement being made that it was okay for your family to leave?

ROBERTS:

No, I don't specifically remember that but, of course, we, uh, it didn't come as a surprise, like in five minutes you had to leave. Because you had to have time to collect your belongings and so on. I would imagine that it was for the following day or something like that, but I have no firm recollection about that. Uh, but we had an advantage, several advantages in entering the country. First of all we had no language barrier. Secondly, my father, having, uh, lived in, worked in New York and lived on Staten Island for three or four years, he was familiar with the area. So, uh, we went up to 23rd Street to the hotel called the Cornish Arms Hotel. And, uh, it was still there many years later. It might still be there. It's on 23rd Street, I think, between Seventh and Eighth Avenue, or somewhere, somewhere in that area. So the Cornish Arms was a place where the British people went, obviously. And, uh, so I being the oldest had to ride herd on the other kids while my father and mother went to look for a place to live. And, uh, they went by ferry across to Jersey City, got on the train. The first stop was Rutherford, they got off in Rutherford, right across the street was a real estate agent. They walked in there. He took them for a ride down the street and they bought the house. So, uh, this didn't happen just overnight. I think we were there about a week, or something like that, at the hotel. So, uh, we came over to Rutherford, the real estate man took us in his car to the empty house, without a stick of furniture in the house, and there we were. We arrived in the afternoon, I remember it very clearly. It was, I guess, the end of May, the early part of June. And, uh, a couple of the neighbor ladies came in and offered us some tea or something like that. And my parents had to go right out to the hardware store and buy some cups and saucers and we started off right from scratch. Slept on the floor that night. And now here we were, strangers in a strange land. Uh, we were dressed like British kids with short pants, rosy cheeks, and we must have stood out like a sore thumb. Because it didn't take very long, a few weeks, before kids used to gang up on us and try to beat us up because we were the outcasts, you know. When I look back now I think of people who were real foreigners, they didn't know the language or anything like that, they had to contend with that on top of other discrimination. Uh, many a time we used to run home and just make it home before this gang of kids would catch us. And he, I have records in the house, now, of him, uh, running a boxing team for people in the, in the army. And, uh, and cadets who were coming into, into the armed forces.

APPLEBOME:

This was in the British army?

ROBERTS:

In the British army. So, uh, from this little area where we lived in Wales, his outfit went to the championship of Wales, championship of Britain. I have the cuttings in the house somewhere. Uh, and they just lost out because they came in second on this whole team competition. So my father was handy with his fists. So he brought my brother and I a set of boxing gloves and he said, "We're gonna go in the background and I'm gonna teach you how to defend yourself because you're not gonna be running home every day." So my brother and I used to go at it and I think we roughed ourselves up more than any of the kids that, well, make a long story short, after a while we got sorted out and we, we, uh, gave as much as we got and after a while we were left alone. But to compound that, the first year we were here, this place was alive with mosquitoes. Before the meadows were built up, you better believe the place was alive with mosquitoes. And we, all of us broke out in blisters. Because of the, first of all we had very bad screens in the house. Remember in nights are of these darn mosquitoes, but any rate, for, for one whole season we had to content with all these bites. But that was the initiation of our, this family coming to America.

APPLEBOME:

This is the end of tape one, side one. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

APPLEBOME:

This is the start of tape one, side two. The house in Rutherford that you were living in, where was it?

ROBERTS:

Well, it still stands. It's on the main street, Park Avenue here, and my parents lived there until they died and, uh, the house belongs to one of my sons now. And it's nice to see it kept in the family. He, he doesn't live there but he rents it out. He happens to live in the city.

APPLEBOME:

You mentioned that the other boys in the neighborhood were giving you and your brother a hard time.

ROBERTS:

Right.

APPLEBOME:

Were you the only immigrant family in the neighborhood?

ROBERTS:

Oh, yes, yes, we were really the only, this town used to be a very close-knit town and it was sort of a blue nose town. Uh, people didn't talk to you unless you were in. It took a long time for us to get in to any extent. But the character has changed now.

APPLEBOME:

And what did your family do for an income now that you had moved to the United States?

ROBERTS:

Well, I told you that my father was a building contractor in Wales. And, uh, he had, being apprenticed when he was a young boy to an uncle of his who was a big-time contractor. And so he had learned the business from the ground up, and ultimately he went into the business for himself. Amongst one of the things that he did, he was an ornamental plasterer. One of these people that did the fancy, uh, ornamentation of buildings and wealthy estate and so on, which was a very specialized field. So my father was in that line when he was here. But he couldn't, uh, he found he couldn't operate by himself so he, he had to, uh, work for larger firms and become a union member. So he was restricted in some ways what he could and couldn't do. Now we weren't here, uh, very long before the Great Depression set in. And, uh, my father, of course, being in the building line, found himself out of work, as did many millions of other people. Uh, we had saved money. We were very frugal with the money so for a while were able to carry on with the savings that they had. But there came a day when there was no money. And, uh, my father was too proud to ask for any relief. He refused to do that. And I remember one night when I was supposed to be in bed my father and mother talking, what's going to happen. The next day there was no money and very little food in the house. And I went to school the next day with a real aching stomach because I was so worried. But a wonderful thing happened. My mother had a brother who was, uh, a single man. He had come to the United States many years before. And he was an engineer with the Twenty Mule Team Borax Company in Death Valley, in California. And she had written to him, evidently asking for the loan of some money. And when I came home for lunch that day a check had come for a hundred dollars, which was a tremendous thing. And, uh, then my father, he couldn't meet the mortgage payments. Uh, so a lot of houses were being foreclosed right and left and we were scared to death, I know I was, and, but my parents tried to keep it away from us kids, that we were going to be out on the street. My father, when he faced that situation, was really desperate. I don't know what he would have done if, in fact, this had happened. But he went to the head of the building and loan and asked if he couldn't make a deal where he would just pay the interest. And in exchange for that he would do repairs on these houses that they were foreclosing. So that arrangement was made and so I remember it was twenty-five dollars a month that they had to come up with to pay the interest. So the house was, was, uh, kept. And then my father was able, he finally condescended in a way, although he had no other option, to, uh, get onto what they called the WPA, the Works Project Administration. And this was something that, uh, President Roosevelt had started. It was sort of a make work deal where the people did whatever for I think it was thirty dollars a month, something like that. So my father used to go down on the meadows down here with some other men and dig drainage ditches. And, uh, he'd take a couple of potatoes with him and make a fire and, uh, cook the potatoes and that's what they ate. So these, this episode in a person's life, uh, puts an indelible mark on one, and, uh, to talk to people in your generation you might understand it to a certain point, but nobody can really appreciate it unless you've been through the fire.

APPLEBOME:

I'm sure you're right in saying that.

ROBERTS:

So, uh, then as things started to ease up a bit in my father was able to, my father, even before that, I think so much of him. ( he is moved ) I think so much of my father. He, he would go to New York and walk up and down the streets looking for some evidence of some work going on in the building, like cement or whatever. Try to walk in to get a little job. He'd walk the streets systematically. One street after the other, day after day after day and come home, nothing, nothing, nothing. So that is a tremendous weight to put on somebody, you know. I didn't realize it at the time as much as I do now but, uh, I thank him so much for having the courage to, uh, make the break that he did and to give us the opportunity to bear our lives here in this country.

APPLEBOME:

Let me just ask one or two other questions. Um, when you had first landed in New York and you said you came up to 23rd Street and you stayed at a hotel, what were your impressions of Manhattan when you landed here that first day or during that period?

ROBERTS:

Well, we were bewildered, of course, we were already acclimated to some of the things we were to see, having seen postcards whatnot of the Woolworth building, which was the highest building, I guess, in the world at the time. So we knew what to expect and we could see the skyline from, from Ellis Island. But, uh, we were told, I was told by my father, to sort of keep charge of the other kids and we never went out of the hotel that, that I can remember. We never wandered the street, that's, that's for sure. So, uh . . .

APPLEBOME:

Did you look out the window?

ROBERTS:

Yes, of course, we, we did that, but it didn't make an impression on me. I was bewildered enough and ready to, you know, expecting some of these things that I would, I would see. And, uh, but the excitement of the unknown, I think in a way, uh, counteracts any fear or apprehension that you would have of a situation. So, uh, I don't recollect being afraid at all.

APPLEBOME:

And also, for those two weeks that you were on Ellis Island, is there anything else you can tell us about that. You said that you would go out each afternoon and play.

ROBERTS:

In the mornings and the afternoons everyone was let out, uh, it couldn't have been all at one time, because, uh, there were too many people involved. And, uh, we were allowed out for, I would imagine for half an hour or an hour or something like that, you know, then we'd have to go in and another group would go out. It was, it was a relatively small area.

APPLEBOME:

This was children and adults?

ROBERTS:

Yes, oh, yes, yes. Everyone was let out and, uh, to get the fresh air.

APPLEBOME:

You're involved with something now concerning Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty? Would you tell us about it?

ROBERTS:

All right. A few years ago my wife and I took one of our grandchildren over to the Statue of Liberty. And, uh, I was very surprised to see some of the things that, for example, they had a, I guess a museum there. And, uh, when you walked through there there was a depiction of the, of the history of immigrants into the country and there were, it was broken down into various nationalities. Germans and whatnot. With lifesize figures in some instance of people in national dress and so on. So, uh, being Welsh, I was interested to see something about the Welsh coming into this country because there's a very strong history of Welsh people arriving early into America and very substantial contributions have been made to the growth of the country. Uh, I could enumerate many, many things that outstanding Welsh people have done and people who were not so outstanding. Uh, people were, uh, recruited in Wales to come over to work in the coal mines here and, and they settled in Pennsylvania and so on. And established some towns with Welsh names that are still there today. People were recruited from the north of Wales to work in the slate quarries up in the marble quarries up in Vermont, New Hampshire. Uh, and so on and many of the leaders of the, uh, war of independence were Welsh people. The man who financed the, uh, revolution, was a Welshman. But I saw nothing about this at all. And I thought that, uh, if the government was going to refurbish this exhibit that there should be some recognition of the contribution of Welsh people to the building of the country. So I got in contact with some influential people of Welsh origin and as a result of that there's an ongoing program now to have some recognition made when the new facility is open. Uh, we also, at another time, went to visit Ellis Island. And, uh, I was really very sad to see the state that it's in. It had been wrecked by vandals, there were some squatters in there for some period of time and, uh, they all contributed to desecrating the place, if that's the correct word, for such a place. Uh, we went on a tour, conducted tour, through the place, my wife and I, and, uh, one of the people from the, uh, National, I don't know, one of these Smokey the Bear girls, took us through, and the stories that she was telling this group was something I, well, it was concocted by somebody with a vivid imagination I think, and without much, uh, without much element of truth attached to it. Uh, so somewhere along the line she invited anybody who might have been at Ellis Island to come forward and speak. So there was a man there who had come in as a baby and he knew nothing. And I spoke to them. And, uh, I recited some of the things that I've told you, just before. And after that I was mobbed by people wanting this and that and the other thing and for me to write articles and, but when we were ready to get back on the boat somebody from the, the national government, what is that organization that, uh, that conducts the tours through there? The, you know, these public park, national park people or something?

APPLEBOME:

The National Park Service, probably.

ROBERTS:

Yeah, okay, these are the people. They got a hold of me and said, "We would like you very much to come to the Statue of Liberty and record what you remember." I said, "I'll be glad to do that." I gave them my telephone number and so on, I never heard from them. So, I left it at that until I was contacted by you folks some months ago and it seems like a happy circumstance because I'm, I'm glad if I can contribute in some small way to your, your, uh, compilation of the history of the, uh, Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty. So I'm gonna be real interested now, next year, when hopefully the, uh, Statue is going to be rededicated to see what, what has been done in the way of, uh, recording for future generations the contributions of Welsh people to the country.

APPLEBOME:

Thank you very much. This is the end of the interview. It's the end of side two of tape one.