APPLEBOME:

This is Edward Applebome, and I'm speaking with Mr. Joseph Fitzpatrick on Tuesday, June 3, 1986. We are beginning this interview at about 3:00 in the afternoon. We are about to interview Mr. Fitzpatrick about his immigration experience from Ireland in 1913. This is Interview Number 184. Mr. Fitzpatrick, can you tell me where and when you were born.

FITZPATRICK:

I was born in, in Queens County, now I'm giving what it was called then, Queens County, Ireland, on November the 29, 1892.

APPLEBOME:

A while ago. And what kind of town was it?

FITZPATRICK:

It was not town. It was in the country, on a farm.

APPLEBOME:

Your family was a farming family?

FITZPATRICK:

A farming family. Yes.

APPLEBOME:

What kind of farm did they have?

FITZPATRICK:

A tillage farm, they called it. Something like your farms Jersey, like, tillage.

APPLEBOME:

What did you grow there?

FITZPATRICK:

Mostly barley, oats, wheat, turnips, potatoes, carrots.

APPLEBOME:

A lot of things, huh?

FITZPATRICK:

A lot of things.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Your father managed the farm?

FITZPATRICK:

My father managed the farm.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. And who else lived there with you?

FITZPATRICK:

It was, uh, twelve other brothers and sisters.

APPLEBOME:

A big family.

FITZPATRICK:

Eight sisters and four brothers.

APPLEBOME:

Where did you fit in?

FITZPATRICK:

Tenth oldest.

APPLEBOME:

Did you work on the farm?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, yes, I did, after school hours.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. What kind of work did you do?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, mostly everything. Picking potatoes, weeding potatoes, thinning turnips.

APPLEBOME:

Was it a nice place to grow up?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes. We were very happy. We were young and in good health.

APPLEBOME:

And so why did decide to leave then?

FITZPATRICK:

I didn't see much of a future.

APPLEBOME:

Did your brothers stay on, your brothers and sisters?

FITZPATRICK:

I had one brother that came to this country about a year and a half before I did. He came to Boston.

APPLEBOME:

How old were you when you decided that you wanted to leave?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, when I first wanted to leave I was, say, about 14, about 14 years old.

APPLEBOME:

Were there other people in the area who had left?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes, there was.

APPLEBOME:

What had you heard from them? What was your expectation? Why, why did you think that the United States might be a good place to go?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, I was working down in the field rotating turnips. That's separating turnips so they grow, grow equal. And, uh, I heard this motorcar about half a mile away on the road. This would be exactly about maybe, about 1905 or 1906. And, uh, I figured he had a much better job, the fellow who was operating the automobile, we called it a motorcar over there, but it's an automobile here, than I did. So then I decided three years after to go to Dublin to go into the bar business, the liquor business. And I worked for four years until I came out here.

APPLEBOME:

What did your family think about you leaving the farm?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, of course, they, uh, my father didn't want me to leave, you know. And he didn't want any of the children to leave, but there was such a large family we had to leave because there wasn't too much there for thirteen children.

APPLEBOME:

So did he get any of the children to stay on the farm with him?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. My oldest brother and, uh, the brother who was a little older than me, he stayed on. But, of course, they had to move on away from there in time. They had to get married in the different places around, my sisters the same. I had one sister who went to England and, uh, my older sister stayed home. She was a dressmaker. She stayed home. My second oldest sister, she left, and she was a milliner. She went to the west of Ireland and she came back and she worked at Kilkenny. The name means nothing to you, I guess, does it?

APPLEBOME:

No, yes, they mean something to me.

FITZPATRICK:

So, uh

APPLEBOME:

Does your father still own that farm?

FITZPATRICK:

No, No. They don't. There's none of the family that's living now. There another large family there, now, with thirteen, family, in that same house.

APPLEBOME:

So you traveled to Dublin?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes, I went to Dublin and I worked in Dublin for about four years. So, uh, I decided, uh, in 1912 that I'd make a move and, uh, of course I wrote to me brother. He answered his letters from Boston and I told him I decided to come out here. And he said, "Before you come out, stay with me until you get started."

APPLEBOME:

You didn't feel there was an opportunity in Dublin, either?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, there was an opportunity there, but it would be , it would take too long to get anywhere. If I wanted to buy my own bar it could take too many years to save up enough money.

APPLEBOME:

Did you have to get training to be a bartender?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. I had two years of apprentice.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. In somebody else's bar?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. That's how you get, they all get started that way. They have an apprenticeship. I had an apprenticeship of two years and I only had to work for eleven months until I was under pay. The first two years you don't get any pay. You get your room and board.

APPLEBOME:

You lived at the bar?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes. I lived upstairs. It was a two story building.

APPLEBOME:

Were the meals served there also?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. Very good meals, good cook.

APPLEBOME:

What was it that they taught you?

FITZPATRICK:

To be able to tend bar, mix liquors, and so forth.

APPLEBOME:

I imagine there were lots of characters there?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes, there were. There was a lot of characters there from, from the Boer War. You had all the Irish fellows that was over in South Africa coming home. They had a lot of tales to tell about the Boer War.

APPLEBOME:

So, did you have big ears?

FITZPATRICK:

Pardon?

APPLEBOME:

Did you have big ears? Were you a real listener?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

Did you think about going into the Army? Was that a possibility?

FITZPATRICK:

That was a possibility. That would be the English Army. It was a possibility, but I wouldn't think of that.

APPLEBOME:

Would you have been drafted if you stayed?

FITZPATRICK:

I would, yes. I would have been drafted in the English Army in 19, uh, well, there was around, uh, sixteen and so forth, so it was probably when the Easter Rebellion came along in 1916. Of course, I was over here then. I had two brothers that was in the Irish, Irish Army, at that time. I had a brother who served in the English Army, and I served in the American Army.

APPLEBOME:

What did you hear from your brother who had come over? What did he tell you about the United States in his letters?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, he was very happy that I was coming out to stay with him.

APPLEBOME:

How did he describe what it would be like?

FITZPATRICK:

He didn't describe it very much. Of course, Dublin gave me a very good idea, you know. They had everything in Dublin practically that they had in Boston, at that particular time.

APPLEBOME:

Was it a, was it, for a small town boy, what was it, not even a small town boy, a farm boy, what was it like to live in a city like Dublin?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, well, the hours were very long so I didn't have any, didn't have any chance for sports or anything while I was up there, four years. I lost all my training that I had. I was a football player. I was football player.

APPLEBOME:

What we call soccer?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, yes, but you could handle the ball. Soccer you can't touch the, the ball, except the goalkeeper. APPLEBOME; Uh-huh. But if you lived on a farm, who did you get to play with when you were a boy?

FITZPATRICK:

All the boys that was going to the same school as I did.

APPLEBOME:

How did you get to school?

FITZPATRICK:

Walked across the fields.

APPLEBOME:

How far was it?

FITZPATRICK:

One mile and a half. Across the fields, then we picked up the road, and--

APPLEBOME:

How long did you go to school until?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, I went to school, uh, until I went to Dublin.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh.

FITZPATRICK:

Yes. That would be, uh, say in 1912, say, about 1908. I would kick football. I won a silver medal kicking football.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Um, and so, Dublin, you're saying you spent most of your time working. Where would they get the beer from that was served at the bar?

FITZPATRICK:

They would get it from, uh, mostly Guinness. You've heard of Guinness?

APPLEBOME:

Sure.

FITZPATRICK:

Yeah. Well, it was mostly Guinness. And their ginger ales and sodas came from Beulah Drapers. They were an English concern.

APPLEBOME:

Did Guinness have a factory in Dublin?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. A large factory, very large.

APPLEBOME:

Were there ever any fights in the bar?

FITZPATRICK:

No. The bars were run very strict over there. You had, you had to be very careful, when a person came in, that they were not under the influence of liquor because they, the police have quite a lot of authority there, at this, at this particular period. This would be about 1908. If there's anybody caught who would, liquor was in front of them on the counter, or on the bar, and they were under the influence of liquor, that was against you, against the barkeeper.

APPLEBOME:

I don't understand. You had a bar, and you would serve people drinks

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

So how could they get in trouble for having liquor with them?

FITZPATRICK:

It's all under the Dublin police force. He had the authority to walk into that bar at any time during the, during the hours that the bar was open. He walked in, about four paces ahead of the patrolman. The patrolman came behind him. There was nothing said. He walked in and he kind of gave everybody the eye that they were all right and he walked out the other door, and that was the end of him. Would, if you saw a person at the bar with a drink in front of him, he would, uh, if he was under the influence of liquor, that he thought, he'd write you up, and you could lose your license.

APPLEBOME:

Sounds a little peculiar to me, but

FITZPATRICK:

That's the Dublin, the Dublin police, at that time.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. So everybody was afraid of the police?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes. I'd say so, yes.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Uh, so you decided that you were going to come over to the United States? Did you have to get money together to do that?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, uh, well, the last two years I was working there I was paid. I was paid at the rate of, uh, two pounds ten a month. That would be the equivalent to, uh, five, ten, about fourteen dollars a month.

APPLEBOME:

Plus you got room and board, right? Did they give you a place to stay and they gave you meals?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Good meals.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. So you saved up enough and you bought

FITZPATRICK:

Well, my father paid most of the passage for me, which was only about thirty-five dollars at that time, on steerage.

APPLEBOME:

What boat did you go over on?

FITZPATRICK:

I came over on the Majestic. Two stacker. Large one.

APPLEBOME:

Were there any friends that went over with you?

FITZPATRICK:

No friends.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. What was the boat trip like?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, I was sick most of the time. Seasick.

APPLEBOME:

You'd never been on a boat before?

FITZPATRICK:

Never.

APPLEBOME:

What kind of food did they serve, or did you not have any?

FITZPATRICK:

We had food, but it wasn't, uh, I didn't like it.

APPLEBOME:

This was, you traveled steerage?

FITZPATRICK:

Steerage.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. The people who were on board the boat, where had they come from?

FITZPATRICK:

They came from Southampton. They were mostly Italian immigrants like myself. I don't know how they came over to, from Italy to Southampton, but they were on the boat when I got on at Queenstown. I'm giving you all Irish names now, Queenstown.

APPLEBOME:

So the boat had gone from Southampton to Queenstown?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

And that's where you boarded?

FITZPATRICK:

That's where I boarded, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Uh, do you have any memories of seeing the other people on the boat during the trip, what your impressions of them were?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. Well, of course, it was the Italians, we didn't, I couldn't speak English, I couldn't speak their language and they couldn't speak mine.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Had you ever seen people from another country before?

FITZPATRICK:

I did. I've seen people in Dublin, but not to get acquainted with them, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

So

FITZPATRICK:

Pardon me.

APPLEBOME:

So, did you keep to yourself when you were in steerage?

FITZPATRICK:

Mostly, yes. I used to try to get up on, on deck, you know, when I felt sick and get a little air.

APPLEBOME:

So was it a bad trip over?

FITZPATRICK:

I would say I didn't enjoy it, really. I didn't enjoy the trip. Yeah. We were riding There was a nice event on the way over. On the 14th day of April we made a large, a very large circle there in the ocean to drop a wreath off where the Titanic sank.

APPLEBOME:

That was something that the captain of the ship organized?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

And what did the passengers do while that was going on?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, they didn't really know what was happening. They thought we were going back to Queenstown again because the ship made a complete circle.

APPLEBOME:

Did you know about the Titanic? Did you know what that meant?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes.

APPLEBOME:

Were you worried that, that might happen to your ship?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, no. We were free then, you know. That was on the 14th day of April. We started, we sailed on the, we sailed on the, on the 10th. That was the 14th, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

But were you worried that your ship might sink like the Titanic had?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, no, because it was a, it was a warm spring that year. It was a year after, but it was warm, and there was no icebergs in that area.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. What did you take with you when you left Dublin?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, just my clothes and so forth. The only thing I did take, the, uh, my sister rolled about a pound of butter up in cabbage leaves and it was nice when I came to this country. It wasn't melted. (They laugh.) Yeah.

APPLEBOME:

That's nice. Did you go back to the farm and see your parents before you left?

FITZPATRICK:

Did I--

APPLEBOME:

Because, when you were in Dublin, before you went, did you go home and see your family again?

FITZPATRICK:

I had about, I had about three weeks off, vacation, like, from the time I left Dublin, till I left Queenstown. I had about three weeks off. I stayed with the family.

APPLEBOME:

And how did they feel about your leaving?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, the brothers and sisters didn't bother much. It bothered my father a lot, yeah. My mother wasn't alive then. She died in 1910.

APPLEBOME:

Did your father try to talk you into staying?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, he, he said, uh, there was one thing he said to me. He said, "All you need is the price of a two cent stamp if you want to come back."

APPLEBOME:

But you didn't take him up on it.

FITZPATRICK:

No. I didn't. Although I saw him in 19 I saw him in 1919. I got a 14 day furlough from Bordeaux, France, so I went home and visited the family before I left France. That was during, right after the First World War.

APPLEBOME:

So, uh, you took the trip over, and it was the Majestic, is that what you said was the boat?

FITZPATRICK:

Majestic, yes.

APPLEBOME:

What were your impressions when the ship got into New York Harbor?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, we didn't see too much. We didn't see too much. So we had, uh, we docked in New York and then we had that, we had to go to, uh, the ferry, or tender I think they called it.

APPLEBOME:

Did you see the Statue of Liberty when you came in?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, sure. You see the Statue of Liberty, because it isn't too far away from the, uh, Ellis Island.

APPLEBOME:

Had you heard of the Statue of Liberty?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, sure.

APPLEBOME:

And what were your feelings or thoughts when you saw it?

FITZPATRICK:

I thought it was real nice, to welcome us.

APPLEBOME:

What did the other immigrants on the boat do when you got into the Harbor?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, they were kind of, they wasn't too happy, you know. Some, there were some small children, and the mothers and fathers were with them, and had to take care of them, and they were crying and--

APPLEBOME:

Any singing?

FITZPATRICK:

There was very little singing.

APPLEBOME:

I bet you were anxious to get off a boat if you'd been sick the whole time.

FITZPATRICK:

I was kind of anxious to get off because I was, I was very hungry, because I couldn't, uh, I didn't eat very much on the boat. So i was very hungry when I came over.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Did you make any acquaintances? Did you speak to any of the other Irish people?

FITZPATRICK:

No, I didn't. I didn't know anybody. I was a real immigrant.

APPLEBOME:

Were you afraid?

FITZPATRICK:

No, I wasn't. No. I had training in Dublin. I wasn't afraid because I met a lot of people in Dublin.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. And how did they get you from the boat over to Ellis Island?

FITZPATRICK:

There was a tender there that brought me from the Battery, took us to Ellis Island.

APPLEBOME:

They unloaded your ship first at the Battery?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, no. They didn't unload that ship at the Battery. No, that was, I think it's the, uh, that was the White Star Line, the Majestic, they unloaded it at, at the uh, large, large pier there in New York, you know, because the wharf was quite long and large.

APPLEBOME:

And some off the passengers got off?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, we got off then to go on the tender.

APPLEBOME:

How would they separate you from First Class passengers who weren't having to go to Ellis Island? How did they Control you?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, they, uh, there were certain areas we couldn't go. We couldn't go on certain areas, no. We couldn't go on the upper deck. So the, stairways there, you weren't allowed to go there.

APPLEBOME:

So when the boat got into New York they let the First Class passengers off?

FITZPATRICK:

I didn't see that happen.

APPLEBOME:

Was it during the day or the evening that you came in, do you remember?

FITZPATRICK:

We came in, in the morning.

APPLEBOME:

In the early morning?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

And what happened when they took you over to Ellis Island?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, they took us into this large, uh, big auditorium, like with seats all the way across and you walked into one of these seats, rows, going through. And that's how we were called up for inspection.

APPLEBOME:

Did they call your name?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes.

APPLEBOME:

What, had you given them a card so that they knew to call you?

FITZPATRICK:

They knew who we were. We still were tagged. We carried tags on our lapel.

APPLEBOME:

What was your impression of Ellis Island?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, I really, to be honest with you, I didn't like it too well. I wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. (He laughs.)

APPLEBOME:

That's what a lot of people say.

FITZPATRICK:

Yeah, but, if I was feeling all right it wouldn't have bothered me any. I was able to rough it, I didn't. I was in good health and a little thing like that, seven days, six and half days coming over, it wasn't too bad, only I was seasick.

APPLEBOME:

Do you remember the questions they asked when they gave you your interview?

FITZPATRICK:

Where was this?

APPLEBOME:

On the Ellis Island?

FITZPATRICK:

Very little. They had all our information. Just to look at it, they had all the information there ahead of me.

APPLEBOME:

Did they give you a medical exam?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, very little. Of course, I had a medical exam before I left.

APPLEBOME:

In Dublin?

FITZPATRICK:

No. In Portlaoise. That's the county I was born in, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

The steamship company arranged for you to have an exam?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, they didn't, no. But I had an examination from a doctor.

APPLEBOME:

Just your own family doctor?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

So you felt you were healthy?

FITZPATRICK:

I was healthy, yes.

APPLEBOME:

Did you see people who weren't doing so well in the exams? Did you see people who were being turned away?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, uh, there were some people taken out. I didn't know what happened to them after that.

APPLEBOME:

Why were they being taken out?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, this, with the answers for the questions the doctor was giving them.

APPLEBOME:

Did you have to show that you had any money?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. They ask you that. They ask you how much money have you got on you, and you tell them you have $25. That was the, that was the minimum amount.

APPLEBOME:

Did you have $25?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes, but I didn't have to show it. Uh, two Italian boys ahead of me, they weren't boys, really, they were middle aged men, they had to show it. But when they called, "Fitzpatrick, how much money have you got?" "Twenty-five dollars." "Okay, you can keep going ahead."

APPLEBOME:

Do you think you got preferential treatment because you were English speaking?

FITZPATRICK:

That's the point. I thought I did. I didn't like it too well. I felt, I had a feeling for the two men that was ahead of me. That, that I didn't like too well, but it passed away. The men got in all right and they were all happy about it.

APPLEBOME:

You passed your exam, and then what happened?

FITZPATRICK:

I didn't, I didn't have the examination.

APPLEBOME:

But, whatever. You had answered the questions satisfactorily.

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes.

APPLEBOME:

And what happened next?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, they took us back to the Battery and from there we walked from the Battery to, uh, I think it was Pier 86. to the boat.

APPLEBOME:

How did you know where to go?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, there was a, uh, guide with us.

APPLEBOME:

A guide? Who provided a guide?

FITZPATRICK:

I, I presume the, uh, the Majestic Line, the White Star.

APPLEBOME:

But you were still traveling on your own?

FITZPATRICK:

No. I was, I was still, I was still under the White Star.

APPLEBOME:

Right. But nobody from your family, your brother didn't meet you?

FITZPATRICK:

No. I was alone, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

Were you worried? Were you relaxed? How did you feel?

FITZPATRICK:

I felt fine. But I wasn't, I wasn't worried.

APPLEBOME:

What did you feel, what were your impressions of New York?

FITZPATRICK:

Big city. Very big city. Of course, New York has changed in that 73 years.

APPLEBOME:

But when you saw it for the first time, what were some of the things that you had never seen before?

FITZPATRICK:

Well, the, uh, not the Chrysler Building, the Chrysler Building wasn't built. The Woolworth, I think that was about the tallest building in New York then. That's down on Broadway.

APPLEBOME:

Did you like seeing such a big building?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. We didn't have very large buildings in Ireland. The largest, in Dublin, I think, was the, Nelson's Pillar. You heard of that?

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh.

FITZPATRICK:

You know what happened to that?

APPLEBOME:

It got You tell me.

FITZPATRICK:

It was blown up.

APPLEBOME:

When?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, I think about, maybe about 25 years ago.

APPLEBOME:

This is the end of Side One of Tape One of the interview with Mr. Joseph Fitzpatrick. This is interview number 184. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

FITZPATRICK:

oh, maybe about a couple of hours. It wasn't very long.

APPLEBOME:

It all went very quickly.

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, it did. Yeah.

APPLEBOME:

They give you anything to eat there?

FITZPATRICK:

No. I had nothing to eat there. I don't remember anything.

APPLEBOME:

Did you see any other people eating?

FITZPATRICK:

I don't remember that either. No. I wouldn't remember.that.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh. Uh, when the ferry took you over to the Battery

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

What wa sit like? hat were the things that you saw?

FITZPATRICK:

I didn't notice anything except the, the Ninth Avenue El as it came along. The Ninth Avenue El was running then. So, uh, the Ninth Avenue El picked us up and took us, I think it was Pier 86. Would that be right?

APPLEBOME:

I'm not sure. Had you ever been on a subway train like that, an elevated train?

FITZPATRICK:

No. No.

APPLEBOME:

Did you like it?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes, I was, I'm sorry. I was in the subway train in Paris.

APPLEBOME:

Before coming to the United States?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, no. I'm jumping ahead of time. That was during the War. That was after.

APPLEBOME:

Okay. So you took the Ninth Avenue El up?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

How did Americans look to you? Did they look different from what you had seen in Ireland?

FITZPATRICK:

No, No.

APPLEBOME:

You didn't feel like a greenhorn?

FITZPATRICK:

No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I didn't feel like a greenhorn.

APPLEBOME:

You got off the Ninth Avenue El, and how did you go to visit your brother?

FITZPATRICK:

I had to take a boat from New York to Fall River, Massachusetts.

APPLEBOME:

How long did that take?

FITZPATRICK:

Overnight.

APPLEBOME:

And did he meet you? What happened when the boat got to Fall River?

FITZPATRICK:

When the boat got to Fall River they had horse drawn taxicabs then. I took a horse drawn taxicab. It cost fifty cents to take me from South Station, Boston, to 37 Joy, West End, Boston. Took me about twenty minutes or so. So I paid the cab driver and went to 37 Joy. Of course, my brother was working, but his wife answered the doorbell. And, of course, she was surprised to see me because I wasn't supposed to come until the next day. I was supposed to come on the Cymric from Queenstown to Boston. Instead I came on the Majestic from Queenstown to New York. So that started me in Boston.

APPLEBOME:

How come you switched ships?

FITZPATRICK:

The Majestic, the Cymric was all filled up. And, of course, the accommodations from, uh, from New York to Fall River wasn't too hot for the immigrants. There was a lot of immigrants on the boat with me. But I was, uh, told by the guide that brought us over there, "Go over to the personnel, the purser's office, and tell him you'd like to get a key for a cabin to Fall River," which he did, for a small donation.

APPLEBOME:

How small was the small donation?

FITZPATRICK:

Twenty-five cents.

APPLEBOME:

You were carrying your bags with you at this time?

FITZPATRICK:

I was, yes.

APPLEBOME:

How many bags did you come over with?

FITZPATRICK:

I had just one bag, a steamer trunk.

APPLEBOME:

What did you have in it?

FITZPATRICK:

Everything that I owned, practically, including the pound of butter.

APPLEBOME:

Had your father given you anything?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, my father gave me some money.

APPLEBOME:

Had you met your brother's wife before that?

FITZPATRICK:

Never.

APPLEBOME:

Was she a woman he had met in the United States?

FITZPATRICK:

Yes. He was married, he was over here about a year and a half before I was. He was married and had a family. He had a baby, Jackie, my nephew. You met Jackie. Yeah.

APPLEBOME:

And where was your brother working?

FITZPATRICK:

He was working at the Hotel Westminster on Copley Square. Do you know where it is?

APPLEBOME:

Yeah.

FITZPATRICK:

Well, it's not the Westminster now. I think it's a business hotel, an office, I think, now.

APPLEBOME:

I know where Copley Square is.

FITZPATRICK:

Yes. There was a famous hotel there. The, uh

APPLEBOME:

The Copley Square Hotel.

FITZPATRICK:

Yeah. The Copley Plaza.

APPLEBOME:

Uh-huh.

FITZPATRICK:

Of course, there's a good area there where Back Bay, and Huntingdon Place, and that's the Boston, Albany, New York and Hartford coming in there.

APPLEBOME:

What did you do the first afternoon?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, I didn't do very much. I was staggering,you know, from the boat. You get that feeling that you're not on all fours.

APPLEBOME:

Did you take a nap?

FITZPATRICK:

No, I didn't. No, I didn't take a nap. There was one thing that was, I didn't quite understand. There was, uh, friends of my brother and his wife. This girl came over there to visit. When she was going back to the subway my sister-in-law's brother was there. So he says, "How would you like to take a walk?" I says, "Take a walk where?" He said, "To the subway station."I said, "What for?" He said, "Well, it would be nice and polite if we walked this lady to the subway." That kind of, that started me off with American politeness, I suppose.

APPLEBOME:

Maybe they were trying to fix you up with a date your first day in?

FITZPATRICK:

I hope not. (They laugh.) Oh, yeah.

APPLEBOME:

What did your brother say to you when he came home from work that day?

FITZPATRICK:

He was surprised because they were all, they were all preparing to go to East Boston the next day to meet me. He was surprised.

APPLEBOME:

Who else lived in the house?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, I think that was a two family house there, at 37 Joy. Do you know Boston?

APPLEBOME:

A little. What part of Boston is this?

FITZPATRICK:

Back at the State House. It runs, uh, 37 Joy, I mean Joy Street, runs from the Common to Cambridge, over the hill, like. You go up the hill and then down the hill and you're on Cambridge Street, not Cambridge Sound, but you're on Cambridge Street. And Cambridge Street goes over the Longfellow Bridge, takes you over to Cambridge.

APPLEBOME:

So were you able to find work?

FITZPATRICK:

I didn't, uh, I wasn't in any hurry, so in about two weeks I got a job working in the Hotel Westminster.

APPLEBOME:

Did your brother get you the job?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yeah. He got me the job.

APPLEBOME:

Did you like Boston?

FITZPATRICK:

Yeah. I did. Oh, Boston then was nice city.

APPLEBOME:

It still is.

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yeah, it is a nice town, especially where, the West End up there. It was a nice area. Of course, it wasn't like out Brighton Way, or

APPLEBOME:

Did you meet other people?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yeah. You get acquainted and a lot of people come visit, you know. And they were great for going to visit, nights.

APPLEBOME:

Were you glad you had come over at that point?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, the only thing that bothered me, I was very lonesome. I was tremendously lonesome. It's pretty hard to leave a big family and So I worked at the Westminster for about six months. The I worked, I left the Westminster and I worked for a grocery company. They were wholesalers. Nice concern. So I worked for them for about six months, then I went to, uh, working in the Ocean House that's out near Lynn. Did you ever hear of Lynn, Massachusetts? Just the other side of Lynn.

APPLEBOME:

Did you think about going back since you missed your family?

FITZPATRICK:

No. At that particular time I, I wasn't in a position to go back, you know. (He coughs.) Excuse me. There was no airplanes then. It was boats. It would take too long. You'd be traveling too long. It would take about two weeks, you know, a week over and a week back. You wouldn't have any time for a vacation.

APPLEBOME:

I meant to return completely.

FITZPATRICK:

No. I never wanted to return completely.

APPLEBOME:

Did you or your brother try to persuade your father to come over?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, my father wouldn't come over. I had two brothers,they wouldn't come over either. My father was along in years then and he wouldn't want to come over.

APPLEBOME:

And then what happened when the War broke out?

FITZPATRICK:

When the War broke out, uh, June 6, 1917, we all registered, of course, to draft. And, uh, they were, they were called up, called up in turn. Physical examination with the draft board and then you were issued a number and you had to wait till that number was called. I was very, very lucky. I had, uh, almost ten months from the time I registered till I was called.I wasn't called until, uh, well, you were called up ahead of, ahead of that, to be examination for, physical examination.

APPLEBOME:

Had you become a citizen at that point?

FITZPATRICK:

No.

APPLEBOME:

You didn't have to be a citizen in order to register for the draft?

FITZPATRICK:

No. I didn't have to, I didn't have to go if I didn't want to.

APPLEBOME:

Oh. So you were volunteering.

FITZPATRICK:

Yes.

APPLEBOME:

Did that help you for getting citizenship papers?

FITZPATRICK:

Uh, well, I got on July 12th of 1918, there was 2100 of us became American citizens in Camp Dix, New Jersey. From then on, see, I was an American citizen.

APPLEBOME:

You went overseas during the War?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, sure. I spent ten months in France. I was drafted there and I went to Camp Dix, New Jersey. Uh, I think that would be about the 26th of June, 1918. We were all naturalized on the 12th of July.

APPLEBOME:

Did you see ant battle action?

FITZPATRICK:

There was no battle action there. I saw no battle action. I was with the Infantry, the 87th Division. So, uh, the first thing, they took out bayonets away from us, which means we were kind of non-combatant. But they left us the rifles. I had eight weeks of training there at Camp Dix. I was ready to go into the trenches if it was needed. Although there was, uh, two or three of our regiments there that did go in the trenches from that division very fast, you know. I was on a boat, I was on a boat going for France in less than eight weeks after I went in the service.

APPLEBOME:

So what activities did you do when you got to France?

FITZPATRICK:

Not too much. I had a special assignment there, I had to go to school, learn semaphore and wigwag.

APPLEBOME:

To learn

FITZPATRICK:

Semaphore, you know, letters. The Morse Code.

APPLEBOME:

Right.

FITZPATRICK:

Yeah. I had to learn that. And, uh, Then I had a service. Like , uh, I had to, I had to check out the of lumber from the lumber yard. It took me three months. Yeah. (They laugh.)

APPLEBOME:

And you had a chance to go home and visit your father then?

FITZPATRICK:

I did. Yes. I went home. I had fourteen day furlough from Bordeaux, France, to come back to France in fourteen days. And I had, I took four days extra. I had a good company commander, Lieutenant King, from Little Rock, Arkansas. He says, "I'm not interested in that. Did you enjoy yourself?" (He laughs.)

APPLEBOME:

Had you?

FITZPATRICK:

I did. I had a nice vacation. That was, excuse me, the last time I saw my father living.

APPLEBOME:

When did he die?

FITZPATRICK:

He died in 1939 at the age of 82, no, 92, I'm sorry.

APPLEBOME:

He had a nice life also, a long life.

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, he did. He did. Yeah.

APPLEBOME:

How did the people treat you at home when you came there now as an American soldier?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, they were, they were all happy to see me. I even got a free ride from Portlaoise out to the farm. There was a cousin of my driving taxi and I wanted to pay him. He wouldn't take any money. (He laughs.)

APPLEBOME:

You were in uniform?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, yes. Oh, I wasn't supposed to take the uniform off. When you put that uniform on it stays on till you're discharged.

APPLEBOME:

And then what did you do after the War?

FITZPATRICK:

After the War I came back to the same job as I had in Fall River. I had a good job in Fall River. I was the manager of a good sized scrapper and steel yard in Fall River. Then I was transferred to New Bedford, and therefore I was drafted from New Bedford.

APPLEBOME:

Had you ever felt like an immigrant during this time?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, no, because I, there was, there was no immigrants where I was living, in that particular area around. So I had to pal around with all American boys. There were all American boys I palled around with. I was the only foreigner amongst them.

APPLEBOME:

And nobody treated you differently?

FITZPATRICK:

No. They showed me a good time before I went into the service.

APPLEBOME:

What do you think would have happened if you had stayed in Ireland?

FITZPATRICK:

I'd have been in trouble in 1916. That was the Easter Rebellion week. I would have. I think I'd have been in trouble.

APPLEBOME:

Because?

FITZPATRICK:

I guess I would have joined the IRA at that particular time because I had two brothers. My oldest brother and my second youngest brother, they belonged. So, uh, in 1919, when I did get the furlough across I spoke to my brother, the youngest brother. I said, "Well, uh, do you have any arms?" He said, "Yes, I had a rifle." I says, "Could I see it?" He says, "No, I won't show it to you." So he, he wasn't going to show his rifle. So that's all right. So it's funny, you know. I was with the Americans, and they were with the Irish and the other brother was the English Army.

APPLEBOME:

How come he wouldn't show it to you?

FITZPATRICK:

I don't know. (Voice off tape.)

APPLEBOME:

But, so, you think you probably would have joined the Irish Republican Army as a young man?

FITZPATRICK:

I think I would get involved. I wa sup in Dublin. I'd be in Dublin working and that's where most of the trouble was. Because my brother there, he, uh, there was nine, there was nine men working for the, the boss they had there in Dublin, and they all slept in one room. So, uh, uh, the English, uh, the English Army came along, the soldiers, and they fired from the sidewalk across the street. Because when they fired they had to fire up and the bullet hit the wall right near the ceiling where they were sleeping down below. So that's what happened with them. I very likely would have been in it. I'm only just saying that for There was a lot, there was a lot of trouble then. It was too bad. I'm very, I'm a very peaceful fellow, you know. Even when I was in the Army, and I was trained, I got a good training, they train you to Oh, I hate to say it, but they tell you, at the point where if you come in close contact with a soldier, a man, like yourself, where to stab him. And that meant life. Because they do tell you, they do tell you to not take prisoners, because you haven't even got, you have one ration for yourself. It's, it's hard, you know, it's hard, life. War is something I don't like.

APPLEBOME:

You feel you did the right thing in coming over as a boy?

FITZPATRICK:

Oh, I say yes. Nothing really happened to me to think otherwise. I got acquainted with a lot of nice people in this country. I met a lot of nice people in Boston, In New York. Especially in New York. And then after my first wife passed away, in 1970, well, then I was back and forth between the three children, to Virginia, Washington. So I, uh, I'd say, uh, I done the right thing by coming.

APPLEBOME:

It's nice that you can say that.

FITZPATRICK:

I had, the, uh, I'd say the, especially in New York. New York was very good to me. I'd say Con Edison was wonderful outfit. The best I ever worked for.

APPLEBOME:

Okay. Thank you very much.

FITZPATRICK:

You're welcome, indeed. with that Irish accent I've got.

APPLEBOME:

It's easy to understand. Yes. This is the end of side two of tape one of the interview with Mr. Joseph Fitzpatrick. This is the end of Interview Number 184.