MOORE:

Good afternoon, this is Kate Moore for the National Park Service and today is July (distort) Alexander Morrison Morris, who came to the (distort) speaking with Alex Morris came to—from England in 1952 at the age for 41 years old (distort) 52 at the age of 41 years old. Um, why don't you begin by giving us your full name and date of birth please?

MORRIS:

Alexander Morrison Morris.

MOORE:

Could you speak-spell Morrison and Morris? KM-63/ MORRIS 2

MORRIS:

Morrison, M-O-R-R-I-S-O-N, which was my mother's name and Morris M- O-R-R-I-S, was my father's name.

MOORE:

And what is your date of birth?

MORRIS:

September the 10th 1911.

MOORE:

And where were you born?

MORRIS:

Hexham, North Umberland, England.

MOORE:

And how do you spell Hexham?

MORRIS:

H-E-X-H-A-M. MOORE: What size town was Hexham?

MORRIS:

At that time about 1800 people, small market town, residential area for the city of Newcastle on Tyne.

MOORE:

What was your father's name? What was his occupation?

MORRIS:

General builder MOORE: Could you describe what your father looked like? If someone had never seen a picture of him (distort) if someone had never seen a picture of him.

MORRIS:

About five foot nine. Medium build, slightly uh, lame because of an accident where he fell through a roof many years ago.

MOORE:

What about his personality and temperament?

MORRIS:

He was very keen on gardening and uh, I wish uh—a member of a friendly society known as the—(hits microphone) hm, sorry.

MOORE:

That's alright, you're not used to that, part of a society known as the.

MORRIS:

Ancient order of - Ancient Andoluvian Order of Buffalos. Which is a friendly society, you've heard of them? KM-63/ MORRIS 3

MOORE:

Yes and what is the purpose of that society?

MORRIS:

Well you see it was a friendly society, they met together to discuss local politics and benefitting the underprivileged. They ran two or three hostels on the seacoast to which people who had been sick were invited to take vacations and children were taking care of also. Buffalos that was their friendly society part, the other was of course an insurance company.

MOORE:

Is there a story about your father that you associate with your childhood at all? Something characteristic or something different that happened that you remember?

MORRIS:

No, he was a very truthful man and he insisted upon truth from his children. He was a very stern man as far as each child had their chores that they had to do. But very supportive of me for instance when I broke away from the traditional Church of England and became a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He therefore, typical of him (unintelligible) read everything he could find for or against the Mormon Church. And uh, defending it in the pubs which he frequent quite often, in the pubs he defended the church and the missionaries which great rigor. But he wouldn't join the church. He was satisfied with his traditional Episcopalian beliefs.

MOORE:

When you say he wouldn't join the church you mean LS?

MORRIS:

LS yes.

MOORE:

And what was your mother's name? KM-63/ MORRIS 4

MORRIS:

Anne Craig Morrison. Her father was John Morrison and they lived in Woodside, Aberdeen, Scotland.

MOORE:

And what was the second name that you mentioned? Anne?

MORRIS:

Craig.

MOORE:

And how do you spell it?

MORRIS:

C-R-A-I-G. Craig.

MOORE:

And um, what was her occupation if any?

MORRIS:

None, Homemaker.

MOORE:

Homemaker.

MORRIS:

Especially was very active in politics she was a member of the community on the local conservative society. That's the—that's what we would call the far right here you see.

MOORE:

And what—how would you describe what she looked like, your mom?

MORRIS:

Mm…5 foot 3, rather rotund, but we—at the pictures we have at our house very beautiful as a young person. She was born in Aberdeen and came with Father into England at the time when big industry revolution, when building hundreds of houses to house their industry workers. Newcastle on Thyme was the newest city, was the center of ten miles of ship building down the river for instance and there was Armstrong Brickers that made Churchill tanks and the heavy war machines and shipbuilding. Ships the Mauritania, like the Mauritania and the Aquitania and all those Cunard liners up to the Queen Mary, that was done on the, on the-- in Glasgow but most of the ships, that crossed the blue ribbon across the Atlantic. The KM-63/ MORRIS 5 Aquitania and all those they were all built on the Tyne and outfitted on the Tyne.

MOORE:

So, back to your mother. How would you describe her personality and temperament?

MORRIS:

Very easy-going, very very friendly. Always taking in stray people that needed help, uh, was at times careless financially; she spent all she could get ahold of. Should I hold it up to my mouth again?

MOORE:

What were her chores around the house? Your mom.

MORRIS:

Oh, she was busy. She had ten children and uh she was just a mother.

MOORE:

And is there a story about your mother that you associate with your childhood?

MORRIS:

Well yes, she was, as I told you she was um, political minded person and was on the committee for the local parliamentary elections and things of that kind. And uh, she took me to meet the Speaker of the House of Commons because he was a Member of Parliament for our area and the Speaker of the House of Commons was the man that controls the business affairs, he decides who's going to speak and who's not going to speak and so forth. So, he—that was a great experience for me of course.

MOORE:

Who was the Speaker at that time? And what year was that about?

MORRIS:

Clifton Brown, he had another name but I don't remember. Clifton Brown was his name and he was—he was the Speaker of the House of Commons for I think, thirty years.

MOORE:

And what year did you go meet him? How old were you? KM-63/ MORRIS 6

MORRIS:

Oh…I suppose nine. Ninety… well about 1920 I'd say.

MOORE:

Now you said you mentioned that your mother had ten children. could you tell us the names of your brothers and sisters in chronological order?

MORRIS:

I'll try. Ehm, Roose, Sam—Samuel,(unintelligible), Agnes and John, now there were two babies Anne and James—they died as infants, and then there was myself—Alexander and then there was Margaret and James, he died, and Charles. Charles Ray.

MOORE:

Now what—describe your house as a child, where you lived?

MORRIS:

When I was born, in a terrace house that's a—I don't know whether you know what that means? That means two houses side by side and two doors at each end of the lot the first door went straight upstairs to the flat upstairs and there was a flat downstairs. So there was four houses in the one block, little yard in the back with a little garden and looking out of my backdoor I could see right now the valley because we were right at the extreme border of the town and we looked over down into the valley and down to the river Tyne where the junction to the North and the River Tyne meet.

MOORE:

What was the address of that house?

MORRIS:

20 Prior Terrace Exalum?

MOORE:

How many rooms were in that?

MORRIS:

Well there was a—what we called a scullery and the kitchen and the main bedroom and two other bedrooms.

MOORE:

And how was it heated? KM-63/ MORRIS 7

MORRIS:

An old uh, coal furnace, with an oven in one side and a boiler for heading water on the other side. We had no circulating hot oil. Had to dip the hot water had (unitelligble) MOORE: Where was your source of water in the house?

MORRIS:

In the scullery. In the scullery there was the kitchen sink and the kitchen table and we—we had—put a bath underneath that and underneath the kitchen tables so you could life the tabletop up and that was the bath but you had to get the water out of the boiler. And in the corner there was a boiler heated by cooking oil or wood and was a big uh, cauldron? And then all the clothes - all the white clothes were boiled in those days and to wash those clothes you had a wooden tub— a beer cask cut in two and a pot stick—a big stick with two handles. You thrust the clothes in and with the stick. Of course it's more convenient to get the children in there and they punch the clothes with their feet in there and they're clean as well. Now we're talking about primitive conditions you know? In a country town you see.

MOORE:

And what about the lighting? What type of lighting did you have?

MORRIS:

When I was a boy I had gas lighting just across our back fence down a little ways there was a big gas work and they converted coal into cork which was used by industry and the gas was used for lighting and heat and the byproducts were all kinds of chemicals and stuff.

MOORE:

Now did you have—what about plumbing? Toilet facilities? KM-63/ MORRIS 8

MORRIS:

You went down the back door and down the stone steps, we were in the upstairs flat you went out the back door and down the stone steps and there was a toilet and the (unable to understand) house in the small yard.

MOORE:

But it was basically an outhouse?

MORRIS:

I couldn't tell you but it had running water. It was a toilet but it wasn't a lavatory. It was just a toilet.

MOORE:

I see.

MORRIS:

You would pull the chain.

MOORE:

I see so it was a running water toilet.

MORRIS:

That's right.

MOORE:

What kind of furniture did you have in the house?

MORRIS:

We had some very nice furniture in my mother's room, lovely couch— reclining couch and two beautiful arm chairs and an oak dresser. In the kitchen there was a table about this size, pine table with a bench at the back wall where the children, most of the children sat to eat, kitchen on that side. Kitchen's on this side in the center of the room you see. Cupboard on this side to hold the groceries in the cupboard with the pots and pans, that's all there was in the kitchen.

MOORE:

Did you eat meals—how did you eat your meals as a family, they had many children?

MORRIS:

Oh yes, well the men sat down first and ate this is a joke, the men sat down at ate first and then the workers sat down and ate first and then the rest had theirs afterwards. KM-63/ MORRIS 9

MOORE:

And this was every meal? Even on Sundays?

MORRIS:

Uh, most—most on Sunday no, Sunday everybody was there on Sunday. You'd wait for Father to come back after the pub's closed about two o'clock and uh, he would bring a bottle of stout for my mother and a big bottle of lemonade so the children could have lemonade. And we had to wait till he came. Nobody could eat until he came. And when he came the dinner had to go on the table. Is that-- is this irrelevant?

MOORE:

No this is wonderful!

MORRIS:

Well uh, my father was a great gardener—amateur gardener you see. And uh he grew all our vegetables and for many the poor people round about too. Very generous, he was. He kept some things specially for show, what do you call that here in this country?

MOORE:

A show.

MORRIS:

(off mic:Exhibition) Exhibitions, everybody (intelligible) who's got the best vegetables.

MOORE:

Oh, competitions yeah.

MORRIS:

So there were some that were not touched, things that were not touched in his garden, they were poison. (unable to understand) cause he was, especially for the shore you see. But everything else was—for instance rhubarb. One outside of the garden he had four or five rhubarb plants and they were poison and you couldn't eat them and on the other side there was rhubarb plants and could eat as much as you wanted.

MOORE:

Would he say they were poison? KM-63/ MORRIS 10

MORRIS:

And the next year, the next year—they became poison and these became useful.

MOORE:

And so he actually told you they were poison?

MORRIS:

Yes.Uh-huh and told us not to eat them—in other words they were not to be eaten. He didn't mean anything bad about it he just making his rules. Don't use those you see. Because he knew that rhubarb takes an extra year to recuperate you see.

MOORE:

And did he ever win any prizes for his garden?

MORRIS:

Oh yes, yes. He used to do very well with these exhibition, he would have an exhibition two great big parsnips and carrots and this long you know, a plate of potatoes all exactly uniform size and shape and uh very beautiful.

MOORE:

And who held them—who sponsored these competitions do you remember?

MORRIS:

Different branches, sometimes the local churches sponsored them sometimes they had to go to what was called the Chrysanthemum Society and had the annual show you see, then the county had the county shows you see.

MOORE:

And he want to all of those?

MORRIS:

Not all of them but he—he did well, he did quite well.

MOORE:

And what about animals did you keep any animals.

MORRIS:

No, dog. Sometimes. (Off mic: Scottish) Little scotty yes.

MOORE:

Who else lived in your building? Were your grandparents with you?

MORRIS:

No. No just our family. KM-63/ MORRIS 11

MOORE:

And where did your grandparents live?

MORRIS:

In Aberdeen.

MOORE:

In Aberdeen.

MORRIS:

Mmhm MOORE: Oh, interesting. Back to meal time, what was your favorite food as a child?

MORRIS:

Favorite food as a child, why I don't know. I suppose it was mincemeat, what you call ground meat you know? Mincemeat and dumplings that mother cooked in the oven and they were brown and not soggy as they usually are. Beautiful light fluffy things, learned how to make those, we still have it occasionally, that's one of our favorite. And every other Sunday there would be a leg of lamb. Every Sunday we'd have a leg of lamb and uh, now potatoes and cauliflower, peas and green (distort) and peas and green beans and beets, anything you could—anything from the garden. Any amount of vegetables, became useful because later when we joined the Church and the missionaries kept coming, they went off laden with groceries—green groceries and they all landed down the street at Mrs. Foster, the best—my father never gave anything shoddy, it was the best— the best in his garden went to the old lady down the street, that widow had some sick children.

MOORE:

And your grandparents, did you see them of—how often did you if you did see your grandparents?

MORRIS:

Oh uh about three times. I stayed with them when I was a very small boy, when Grandmother was , was ill, and then my brother—my older brother KM-63/ MORRIS 12 and I went together another time, my mother was there nursing her mother. We traveled by a little boat called the Highlander from Newcastle on Tyne to Aberdeen, twelve hours on the Highlander, that little vessel was still running back and forth during the Second World War, it came to a nasty end. A German aircraft landed through the deck of the Highlander and that was the end of the Highlander . But that was how it went. It took twelve hours on the average from leaving Newcastle to get into Aberdeen. So then that was the second time, the third time was when I went up to the funeral for my mother's brother but uh Grandfather was still alive but Grandmother had died. I never knew the Morris grandparents—excuse me, the Morrison grandparents. I knew the Morrison they were dead before I got there.

MOORE:

Now you mentioned religious life, um you mentioned your father was Episcopalian.

MORRIS:

Yes. Insist he went to church Christmas Day and Easter. But insist we'd go to church every Sunday. He didn't go.

MOORE:

Did your mother go?

MORRIS:

As a boy he had been a server on the altar in Aberdeen, we have a picture of that somewhere.

MOORE:

And did your mother—was your mother religious?

MORRIS:

Yes. But she didn't go to church very often either but, she made sure that we went. I was a member of the church choir and uh, in fact occasionally carried the cross in the processions. And uh, helped the berger, the berger KM-63/ MORRIS 13 was the man who looked after the building. I helped the berger with gathering of books and dusting and uh, winding the big clock when he had to wind it in Hexham, you know he has a big clock tower you know and (unitelligble) bells. And uh the bells shook the hour of the clock every quarter and you had to wind them, you know just like—I don't know when you ever seen an old washing machine with wooden rollers and a rope you can do to turn the wheel. That's what it took to wind the clock. A great big ropes hang down the wall and you pulled these rigs up the side by winding this fabric and that's how you'd wind the clock it's different now, run by mechanics now but in those days it was done every day you had to go and wind the clock.

MOORE:

Did you enjoy church as a child?

MORRIS:

Oh my, yes very much. We had Sunday school in the morning and then choir with matins at eleven and evening psalms at six thirty. Then on Wednesday we had evening psalm and the boys' choir sang for that and uh, I went to Babatage I didn't go to Sunday school because the berger was the man that taught the Babage class. I can tell you an amusing incident about that if you like. I don't know if you know how a bell. (something falls) sorry, my sorry.

MOORE:

No, no it's fine.

MORRIS:

Do you know how a bell's rung? Church bells.

MOORE:

Yes. KM-63/ MORRIS 14

MOORE:

They have a wheel attached to them and you pull the rope and the bell swings until you get it's almost up on its end. You're all standing on the end in order to play a tune they know slightly when to tug the rope you know. Well that's how the tunes are played. Now, the berger also had to toll a bell, when there was a death in the family in the religion you see. You toll the bell, this bell's swung like this and then you stop it and it went bong. And then every thirty or so seconds you'd stop it and it'd ring. And when he taught, the babatage at the same time as he was doing his chores sometimes and it was my job—he had a long rope about three hundred feet of rope that came down from the bell tower, down through the floor of the chin where they ran the bells and down usually the center of the church. And he'd put this loop on the end of that and then he'd put his foot in this loop and you'd swing this bell like this and teaching the class and then of course bang. In order to do that you had to attach this long rope to the rope on the bell and that was done upstairs in the, in the bell chamber. So I had to go up the high stairs and up through the service stairs inside the wall and on the stairwell inside the wall and into the belfry you see and I'd tie these two—I went to tie these two ropes, but when I got there I noticed that the bells had been left by the bell ringers, ready for the evening psalm so then they went they didn't have to ring them up, they were already start doing the chime you see. So uh, I tied the ropes together and I came down to the first little staircase and could see him down there and the bis—the church and there was two tin men or KM-63/ MORRIS 15 sanctimonious to shout you, see and tell them not to pull the bell without taking his foot out of the rope but it was too late because he saw me and he just tolled the bell and he went up in the air and he wore a celluloid tie and it went one way and his spectacles went another way.

MOORE:

(laughs) MORRIS: So that was the, sorry.

MOORE:

It's alright (laughs) MORRIS: That was the uh, experience with the berger and the (unable to understand) MOORE: (laughs) Good. Was that the last working in the (laughs) MORRIS: Pardon?

MOORE:

Was that your last time working in the church?

MORRIS:

Oh, no no. He, he quite understood. He said I should have known there was,it couldn't be tied obviously. But he was too intent on teaching his lesson to listen to me you see. And I was too shy to shout in the church. That wasn't- that wasn't done you see.

MOORE:

Well uh, did you say prayers—grace before dinner at home?

MORRIS:

Yes. Yes, we uh—very short/ MOORE: What was it you said?

MORRIS:

For what we're about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful.

MOORE:

Mm.

MORRIS:

And then at the end , Thank God for a good and uh please may I leave the table. Nobody left the table without permission, see? KM-63/ MORRIS 16

MOORE:

And what about at night before you went to bed? Did you say prayers then?

MORRIS:

No, no. Not family prayers no. Not in those days, that's before we met the Church because after joined the church we did. We have prayers at night, in the morning.

MOORE:

What about holiday celebrations, what was your favorite?

MORRIS:

Hm. Not Christmas because Christmas was my mother's worst time. All the great tragedies of my mother's life happened around Christmas time. So Christmas wasn't uh- and she was very superstitious and she didn't like greenery in the house that was unlucky. And she didn't-- wouldn't have a Christmas tree for instance but uh, she—when I got a (unable to understand) she relented a little bit and made a ring from, you know—you don't know a ring from an apple barrel is.

MOORE:

No I don't.

MORRIS:

You know the things that tie the barrels together.

MOORE:

Mmhmm.

MORRIS:

They were made of twisted wood, and uh, we'd get two of those and make—put one each in the entry and decorate with uh colored tissue paper and we'd hang things on it. So it wasn't a tree but it was a Christmas decoration. So we—we kind of.

MOORE:

Worked around that.

MORRIS:

Yeah.

MOORE:

You said that there were tragedies that occurred that time. KM-63/ MORRIS 17

MORRIS:

Well let's see. My oldest brother was killed in the First World War, and uh almost Christmas time. My oldest sister was drowned up in Scotland at the end—at the end—during the war, she went to work during the war the girl all went to work you know she went to work in a wool factory and then she left home and went up to uh, nurse my grandfather when he was dying and when he—when Grandfather died she took a position in Dundee, Scotland and went out one night along the riverside and the storm and she was blown into the river. She was drowned. And all these sort of things happened at Christmas time, and she was very—she didn't like—father fell through a roof just at Christmas time too, that was another tragedy. I told you my father had a uh limp, it wasn't very noticeable but it was noticeable when he tried to lift a ladder, he couldn't lift a ladder so I go—I got quite strong because I worked with him, I did all the heavy lifting for him.

MOORE:

What about, um Guy Fawkes day? Did you have that?

MORRIS:

Uh, yes. But uh, we were never allowed to go and make a Guy. A lot of the kids in England you know they make a dummy and carry it around so there's pennies to buy the fireworks, you see? Uh, but we weren't allowed to do that, but we, we always got a few crackers in the backyard, yes (unable to understand) ones you know. But—but there was a very important little ceremony not for Christmas but for the New Year. Uh. Up on the hills outside downtown was a little town called Allendale and uh, they had a famous Christmas New Year's celebration where they'd gather KM-63/ MORRIS 18 all the trash and the trimmings off the hedges and they'd make a huge pile and they kept that safe until New Years Eve and then they threw the effigy on the pyre and set fire to the pyre. And they uh, twelve men from the village would carry tar buckets on their head aflame and that's how they'd start the fire. They march down the village boundaries that—that so that claimed the boundaries for the people so we could encroach upon it and also this ceremony, this superstition threw the tar barrels onto the heap of debris that had been collected for months. Huge fire and fireworks jumping out all over the place you know?

MOORE:

So for children that was fantastic?

MORRIS:

Oh, not only children they came from near and far by bus and car. Great crowds, yes. And they would sing, like we did in the marketplace in Hexham we'd sing - the local band would come play and we'd dance and sing around it until midnight, twelve o'clock and then we'd disperse and went two by two—two or three together and we'd do what you call a first foot. Have you ever heard of that? Well you go and you go to your friends and you take with you something—piece of coal, piece of firewood or a bun or just something that you bring a gift and you get a drink, you see. Then you go to the next house and they do the same in Norway on Midsummer evening too.

MOORE:

Mm. So what about school life when you were a child?

MORRIS:

Well we lived um five minutes' walk, three minutes if you ran from school. Mmhmm. KM-63/ MORRIS 19

MOORE:

Hold on we need to change the tape and take a break right now. [TAPE PAUSED] [TAPE RESUMED] MOORE: I was asking about your school life but let's back up a bit.

MORRIS:

Oh yes, the school yes.

MOORE:

You mentioned school.

MORRIS:

The school was called the Seal School that I went to. There was an old building was the infant school and then another building was the girls school and then a new building was the boy's school. Now when it was built my father put the roof on it. And I—we saw it, it was my school you see because my dad did it. (laughs).

MOORE:

Did your dad specialize in roofs?

MORRIS:

Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh. So that's um. It was a long—one long corridor and then a central hall and then a short corridor. And uh, classes from seven year old, in the junior school at seven year old you came to the first class on the corridor, first, second, third, fourth, fifth and then the men all the headmasters area was. It was a beautiful school and it looked out onto a green field called The Seal that was a public land, it was like a park. Like a, like a park, it wasn't a park it was—there were trees all around it, it was a flat field big enough for a football pitch on the bottom, then there was a hill, and it was flat on the top for a football pitch and uh, so it was used for sports all the time you see. And in winter time when, when the hill was covered with snow we did sledding down there. Beautiful. That's the Seal. KM-63/ MORRIS 20

MOORE:

Now, the school you said was near home, three minutes if you ran.

MORRIS:

Yes, uh -huh.

MOORE:

Now was it crowded at the school? What were the conditions?

MORRIS:

Well, there—the average class room was four—about forty eight, mhmm. That—there was forty eight in the class that I used to go on you know. So it was quite—quite.

MOORE:

What was your favorite subject in school?

MORRIS:

oh, goodness gracious (laughs) I was always in the top three of the senior by scholastic achievement unless you had someone on me the rise you, you sat in the top of the class you see and look down. All the dunces sat in the front you see. So I was always always in the top two or three over my class.

MOORE:

So you sat in the back?

MORRIS:

Yes. Sat in the back it was, not always, not always on the very top but two or three steps down and I think I suppose, uh what we called mensuration in those days, that's um. Area—areas of different shapes like cones and and triangles. We called it mensuration. That was my favorite maths, it also became useful of course in my work life, because that was what the that was what the roofing specialists do.

MOORE:

And did you learn that from your father? The roofing specialty?

MORRIS:

Oh I worked with him when I—I started working when I was thirteen years old.

MOORE:

Mm. And how long did you go to school then? Through what level? KM-63/ MORRIS 21

MORRIS:

Five to thirteen. Five to fourteen, now on your fourteenth birthday you finish school you see. Now my birthday was in September 10th and the but the—the holiday of vacation ended on the first of September so when I— we had five weeks of vacation in those days. When we started the vacation I went to work. I was thirteen but I had to go back to school for that last ten days and went back to work so. And and I got paid five pence per hour.

MOORE:

In what year? 19 uh..

MORRIS:

ninteeeeen eleven—twenty. Nineteen twenty, twenty one there about yes MOORE: And um, what did you do for entertainment? What type of games did you play as a child?

MORRIS:

oh, well on the street we played hopscotch and uh, blind man's bluff and things of that kind. But at school we played uh, soccer and I played rugby. That's a—that's a glorified uh, maim (laughs) you—you've heard of rugby haven't you?

MOORE:

Yes, my father played.

MORRIS:

Mm. Well I played rubgy, mmhm. I was never any good at cricket, I—I didn't like cricket. Yet, we lived right next to a cricket field. And the tennis courts and every-every year the tennis tournament and we uh, some of us were allowed to go on and be what they called ball boys on the tennis court for the tournament. And our pay was six pence and a bottle of beer and a pie. (laughs) Bottle of ginger beer that was, you see. Strong ginger, you ever heard of it. KM-63/ MORRIS 22

MOORE:

Ginger beer? Yeah.

MORRIS:

Ginger beer. Well that was in storm bottles, lovely glass one. Oh yeah (voices off mic) sarsaparilla on the key side we got sasparilla. Of course the ice cream parlor—the pl—the famous place for—for at evenings the likes of men was the ice cream parlor. We could go to the ice cream parlor and eat ice cream and have a dominos and checkers and that sort of thing.

MOORE:

And what about— MORRIS: But I was a scout you see. I—I most of my team was cub scouts and scouts and senior scouts. I was a scout master and so forth.

MOORE:

How did you get to the United States? Now tell me about your life what lead up to you coming here to Salt Lake City.

MORRIS:

Alright. 1929 was the twenty first birthday of scouting. Sir Robert Baden Powell was the founder of scouting was a famous um, war hero in the Boer War. He was the defender of Mutagen, he was one of the defenders of Mutagen and uh he organized the young people in Mutagen to do chores and help (mumbles) on the siege and to get in—to get information they were kind of a spy ring you know? And so he started to write um a weekly article for an organization in England which was called the Boy's Brigade, it was a semi military type thing. All the young kids were drilled like soldiers and they wore round potbellied hats and thing, called the Boy's Brigade. But he didn't like the children having the military aspect so—but he wrote this series of um—called Scouting for Boys and it was KM-63/ MORRIS 23 published in their magazine the Boy's Brigade magazine. And so many kids got a hold of this uh, publication and wanted to become a scout so he started the Boy Scouts, you see and that was in nineteen hundred and nine there abouts. So when I'm grow—when I became—it had been established for some time before I came old enough and at seven years old I was a cub scout.

MOORE:

And how um, you mentioned that—that you must have worked, you came here at 41 so you had a working life before you came here.

MORRIS:

Oh yes. I was worked, I worked with—I worked with tools, I served my apprenticeship as a slater and tile-er you see. I went to work when I was thirteen and when I was sixteen I was no longer a laborer I was an apprentice and I got a (unable to understand) and I got two and a half pence per hour. But I was being taught the trade you see. Now I served five years until I was twenty one you see.

MOORE:

You were around during the First World War, where there—what was life like?

MORRIS:

The only thing I can remember about the First World War we had—the street lamps were gas lamps, there was no electricity at that time not, uh, not on the streets, it was gas. And uh, I remember this man coming with a bucket of white was, that was really brown wash it was really black and he blackened all the white - all the lamps so it would just give a faint glow, that's one thing I remember about the war. The other thing I remember is the cooperative unit, you know what a cooperative society is? KM-63/ MORRIS 24

MOORE:

Mmhmm.

MORRIS:

Well the cooperative society had uh, large consignment of jam come from time to time. It was in paper containers—cardboard containers and we had to go and stand in line to get this jam you see. And they made you take it to school and keep it at school to get home, because a lot of it didn't get that far you, but (laughs) but uh that was one thing that I remember going to get this jam.

MOORE:

Now um, you also.

MORRIS:

The other thing—oh sorry I pulled this off again.

MOORE:

No that's alright.

MORRIS:

This other thing that I remember is my oldest brother Sam was dressed in his Corp uniform and had his picture taken. And I can remember that uh, vividly and him getting his picture taken.

MOORE:

So your oldest brother went to the First World War?

MORRIS:

At the end of the fir—1918 he went and just a few weeks before the war was finished he was killed on the Marnes you see. And he was only in the army two or three weeks, all the training done about three weeks, he was just seventeen you see. On his eighteenth birthday he went to war and three weeks he was dead. Six weeks from joining the army and getting all his training and dead.

MOORE:

And how did your family react to that?

MORRIS:

Oh uh, it was very sad for us but I—I don't remember much about it. But I—I remember mummy would, she had to had it she was so sad at losing KM-63/ MORRIS 25 her son and then, and then a few—within a year or so of that, Ruth was drowned and died in Scotland. Her oldest daughter.

MOORE:

Now you were also in the Second World War.

MORRIS:

Yes, now I was in the Second World War. My brother, my oldest brother Johnny he was killed, he was a rear bomber and he was killed over Germany. Uh, so my mother lost her oldest in the first war, and also in the second war.

MOORE:

I see, and what did you do in the war—during the war?

MORRIS:

Well see that was another thing after scouting I became a Red Cross worker. I was—we were asked to - to find some young scouts who were willing go and act as patients so they could practice the first aid on them you know. So I—that's how I got introduced to the Red Cross, now to stay with the Red Cross I became assistant commandant of the attachment to the Red Cross. I was later in all the competitions.

MOORE:

And were you in combat during the Second World War at all?

MORRIS:

Oh in the Second World War I was—we were supporting combat. I was Royal Army Medical Corp. when the war was about to close, they built a temporary hospital , supposed to be, it's still existence, but it was a temp—supposed to be a temporary hospital. It, it uh was wooden huts and they each had thirty beds and, and a room for a very sick person you see. And uh it was intended for casualty munitions factories you see. The Tyne—the Tyne side was just—was twelve miles of solid industry you see, coaling mining and steel works and, and machinery—all the Churchill KM-63/ MORRIS 26 Tanks that were the best tanks of the Allies had really. They were all built on the Tyne. All of them really.

MOORE:

So how did you. You, you married before you came to the United States.

MORRIS:

Oh yes, mmhmm.

MOORE:

How did you meet your wife?

MORRIS:

Well that's—that's what I'm trying to tell you. 1929, um, the 21st birthday of Scouting we went to Arrow Park. It was fifty thousand Scouts in one great encampment, beautiful town, great view of town. When we got back from the—when I came back home I met some young men in town, with Scout badges. And jumped to the conclusion that they had come uh, visiting after the jamboree, you see? But it turned out they were missionaries, so uh, they were interested in Scouting (disruption) you see? So I took these boys to the Scout meeting so they can teach some of the American systems of doing things, you know? And they were very helpful, very nice. But the rector got along and - the rector of Hexam Abbey, minister you see. He got to know them and uh, came to my home and said to my mother, now you better stick and give him a good hiding; keep him away from those stupid Mormons. And that upset my mother that he would take that sort of non-Christian attitude and uh, she became interested in the Church too. And so, that's how we joined the church. Now uh, that was 1929 you see, I met these boys you see and offered to take them to the Roman ruins, you see they built a wall. The Roman's built a wall right across the country just where I lived you know, pass within where, where I KM-63/ MORRIS 27 was born. This Roman ruin wall, you've heard of Hadrian's Wall I'm sure. Well I, have to show them these—well I knew about the Roman wall cause I'd done a lot of hiking there you see. But they turn out to be missionaries and nobody would give them a place to meet. Very conservative little town you see we lived in, nobody would give them lodgings (bangs hand on table) they had to pay uh a hotel bill. And they had their first meeting in the hotel, and I went to this first meeting. And as I said before, you know I was active in the Church of England and uh the Mormon meetings started at six o'clock and they got the meeting just nicely started and uh suddenly censored the bells which was just across the street from where the Church was. The bells had stopped ringing, and that meant it was three minutes before the service started so I left that meeting and went back to my own uh, own service and even sung—sat next to my Scout master friend you see.

MOORE:

And how'd you meet your wife then?

MORRIS:

Oh well now, that's coming. Now then, soon the Church was organized and I was baptized and I became the branch president. Uh, straight away I was baptized and ordained a priest and became acting branch president and in six months' time after that I was ordained an Elder and put in as the branch president and uh, of course the Church started to grow in those days not very fast but it was growing and uh, every year we had this— (distortion) Britain—convention for the young people all over Britain. And they met in Kidderminster so I traveled from North of England to KM-63/ MORRIS 28 Kidderminster which is right in the central area, not very far from Sh— Shakespeare country you know. And I've these cycles from London to Kiddenminster and we met, at this young people's convention.

MOORE:

And how—what was her um, affiliation at the time? Was she a member?

MORRIS:

She was a member of the English Church. She just was because her father wouldn't let her join our then, because you can't be baptized in our church without the parent's permission until they're 21, you see? (talking in the background) So she had to wait, she was active in the church but she wasn't a member of the Church until later, but uh, so we met in a church function and the same function the next year we became engaged and uh, the next year we were married. And so for eleven days we courted, eleven days. We had the Kiddenminster twice and I went down to London, stayed a few days once and she came up to Hexamshire a few days and that were all the courting we had. Eleven days.

MOORE:

And how'd you know?

MORRIS:

Well as I said, now you come to the teachers of the church now. In our church we have certain uh, of the Order of Gentleman who have been through the church organization you know are faithful to the Church, uh set apart as patriarchs and the job of the patriarch is to give the members of the church a blessing which promises their outcome, their lineage and their outcome, if they keep the commandments, what will happen to them. And one of the things was, in my blessing, one of the things was when it comes time for you to choose a wife, before you making your decision ask KM-63/ MORRIS 29 the Lord and he will tell you whether it is true or false. And so I met her, the second we became engaged and I said I'll let you know. Isn't that what I said? (Off mic: and I said alrighty then.) I said I'll let you know if you're the right one.(laughs) and that's true. It's true, from the world point—from the world's point of view that's silly but it's so basic. See we believe that we are called and that our unity is a permanent one. There's no—there's no such thing as divorce except for sin. Except for transgression there's no such thing as divorce in the church you see except for transgression because we believe that our union becomes—is consummated in the temple and that's an eternal union. Now in later years, when I preformed my missions I became a sealer in the temple in New Zealand. Now I married hundreds of people together (banging noise) for time and all eternity not just for time, not until death do you part, but for all eternity. That's what they teach you in the church.

MOORE:

Well, how did you get to the United States then?

MORRIS:

Oh. Well, (sighs) we sold everything we had (laughs).

MOORE:

What did you have?

MORRIS:

Nothing very much because, we've been through very rough times. We've been through rough times, the Depression. The Depression comes in the same time there you know.

MOORE:

Yeah.

MORRIS:

Yeah, the Depression and uh I was, carrying my tools uh, all around the country looking for work, see. KM-63/ MORRIS 30

MOORE:

And so you finally did found— MORRIS: But we managed, we had-- one of the things—one of the things the Church taught us was that uh, that uh we gathered, it was erroneous really that we gathered good members of the church always owned their own home they don't rent you see. That was the impression I got you see. So I persuaded mother, who got a little on the death of my grandfather to put that money as a down payment on a home and we'd have a home built. And so we had a home built and we called it Deseret. Now Deseret is the, is the uh standard name for the Church, Deseret, the Holy Be, that's the activity you know? Honesty and activity so we called the house Deseret, so that—so we had that but it wasn't mine, it was her fath—my mother's you see. But then we also had another house in town upstairs and down same as when we had—same kind of house I was born in, a little better (unable to understand) and uh, we bought that. And that's where we lived 7 Kingsland Terrace. And so when we sold that, uh the local one of the rich merchants, Mr. Rob, he uh, came to my door. Personally.(banging noise) He says I hear (not understood) you're going to? You're going to uh, America with your Mormon friends? I said yes. He says and you want to sell your house, how much do you want for it. And I says well I need, now I didn't say I wanted, I said I need a thousand dollars to get me to America. He says right, shake hands there's a deal. He says all your furniture, send it down—down to the used furniture department and we'll give you a good price for it. So, I had to dining room table like this and four KM-63/ MORRIS 31 chairs and two big chairs and two lovely uh, leather chairs you know. We did pretty good, we had a pretty good home.

MOORE:

Wait how did you— MORRIS: We sold it, we just had enough money by selling that uh and the rest is what we gave away to the members of the Church and we had enough money to land in Salt Lake with no money in our pockets.

MOORE:

And who sponsored you? How did you get here?

MORRIS:

Well, uh Hugh B. Brown, you ever heard of Hugh B. Brown?

MOORE:

I know the name, but I don't.

MORRIS:

Hugh B. Brown was one of the presidents of - presidents of the Church eventually but, he was the mission president in when—in England. And he was in charge of the missionaries of England. And uh, during the Second World War he was in charge of all the servicemen in—that belonged to the Church in the British and American army and he um, he—we got really friendly with him. We called him Father and Mother Brown actually and when—when the war broke out he send up sixteen missionaries and six lady missionaries take care of these folks and find transport home for them you see. We had to evacuate all the missionaries out of England because of the war you see. Then we had sixteen missionaries and six ladies and we—we shared them around the few members of the Church and took care of them, fed them until someone made arrangements. So when—after that he said now whenever you—you when you get finished with uh, with your activities and you want to go to Zion. I'll sponsor you. So KM-63/ MORRIS 32 alright that's fine. So, but when it come to the time that we were able to go, he had, he was um he had moved to Canada.

MOORE:

Hm.

MORRIS:

And so we didn't uh, we didn't, he didn't actually sponsor us literally, he was there if we needed him but uh, he didn't do anything for us you see. But to—another friend, I mean this is getting very verbose, but uh, another friend that I made in the army—I was in the army, and we had gone through the beaches into Normandy and we were advancing towards uh, towards (not understood) the last bridge over the - that was still an existence over—to get into Germany. And uh, we were approaching there and it was just before Christmas. And we took over every village (skip) took over every school in the village set up to set up um, a first aid point you see. And uh, (long pause) I had a- a- Methodist kid that was a friend. I had very few friends, I was the only Mormon in the whole Church—in the whole unit you see. Only member of the Church in the whole unit but he was very friendly with me because he was a Methodist and he said well we'll go down to the village uh, there's a café down there in the village we'll go down to the village this evening and have a look around. I said all right, now in the meantime uh, you see we had made arrangements to have Christmas dinner, there was two units worked side by side and we took all the casualties that existed for six hours and then we closed our doors and the other ones opened and they took all the casualties so that's how we worked all the time, in the early days of the war, six hours on, six KM-63/ MORRIS 33 hours off. Six hours on and you were dealing with casualties and the six hours off you had to clean your equipment, get some rest, get some food and back to work again. So uh, that's how it was. So the two See overs got their heads together and they said we'll take twelve hours and you take twelve hours and we'll have Chr—we'll have Christmas dinner that way. Each separately so that's what we did. And uh, by this time those things were quieting down and there was room for uh, six members of each unit to go to Brussels for a weekend pass. I—I don't know what you know about military things but you know what that was for but, the six, these six and I was one of these six. So instead of going with Harry England down to this café I was away to Brussels and Harry England went on his own. And - down the country lane nobody in sight, they—American (not understood) about three miles across that's where they were going to, this jeep came past Harry England going to the American camp a German plane came out of the sky rat-tat-tat-tat and that was the end of the jeep and Harry England. So uh, I was in Brussels for—for no reason at all because there was nothing I could do in Brussels. And my type of life wasn't what was intended—what, what Britain was intended for you see. So I was living the gospel, but I was where I shouldn't be but at the same time my life was saved. So that's uh.

MOORE:

And so when you finally came here, you got here after the war then.

MORRIS:

Oh yes. KM-63/ MORRIS 34

MOORE:

Fifty two. Um, describe the voyage and getting ready. You mentioned you sold everything, what did you take with you?

MORRIS:

Oh, stupid things, blankets—old blankets, and clothes we left everything else and gave everything else away.

MOORE:

You have no sentimental value in— MORRIS: When-when- regarding the clothes they weren't even any good because they weren't—the kids couldn't use them they weren't—not fashionable you know.

MOORE:

Did you have children by this time?

MORRIS:

Oh yes, I brought my one, two, three children with us yes.

MOORE:

And when were they—what years where they born your children?

MORRIS:

Uh, I don't know that come on. Uh, I'll (off Mic: Ruth was born first.) Ruth was born '38, Allan was born two years afterwards and and uh, Anne's was (off mic: not understood) five year. She was youngest, that's three of us. And after we got here we had. Before we came here we had place booked on the ship. There's a ship called the Masdamn, we had a place booked on the ship for the unborn child—a cot in the cabin for the unborn child. But that child died at birth. So uh, we called him Sandy the—(distort) king of India was, legally he was still born but of course he was a perfect little boy, but he died in the birth process. Uh huh and that uh—so then when we got settled down here and in Salt Lake uh we decided we would have another child and we got twins. So we got twin boys. (someone speaks off mic) That's right it worked so we got twins anyway and they, KM-63/ MORRIS 35 they became missionaries too, and they went to England as missionaries. But that's Church talk.

MOORE:

But no, when you came—didn't you bring anything of any sentimental value with you at all from home?

MORRIS:

Not very much no. One or two pictures.

MOORE:

You came with three small children then.

MORRIS:

Three small children. But MOORE: The boat left from what port?

MORRIS:

Ruth—Ruth was old enough, in junior high to known more French than the French teacher cause she had taken French at the grammar school at home you see.

MOORE:

Mmhmm, when she came here?

MORRIS:

And she didn't like uh, she didn't like some of the things that they did you know and so she was kind of chastised and the punishment they give her is that she had to take extra Latin lessons and so she learnt Latin too. And uh now of course she's got a Master's degree in Education you see. (laughs) .

MOORE:

Well back up a bit.

MORRIS:

That really works out for the good. (something said off mic) Oh dash.

MOORE:

Back up a bit, so you came all the way to Salt Lake City. Why Salt Lake City?

MORRIS:

Oh, because the (not understood) Church is here.

MOORE:

And this was to you a place? KM-63/ MORRIS 36

MORRIS:

That's—that's the only reason we came because we were quite, well I did in Hexham, we liked Hexham and I was branch president for fifteen years around that area out there on Gateshead or Newcastle or Hexham , there were three in a triangle, Gates and Newcastle are something like twin cities.

MOORE:

When you say that you had a good time—life there in Hexham then what is the attraction then what—what is the attraction then in?

MORRIS:

The Church. Aha MOORE: And so you came to the Temple here?

MORRIS:

Yes. Uh-huh MOORE: And you came--- what port did you leave from?

MORRIS:

Portsmouth. South Hampton, sorry. South Hampton MOORE: And what was the name of the ship again?

MORRIS:

the Masdam.

MOORE:

Masdam. What class of accommodations did you have?

MORRIS:

There was only one class because the Masdam was built for tourist trade on the Mediterranean. It was built straight up to the wall and it was, uh a new ship and it came from France or Holland to South Hampton and on the way it had a collision with a tug in the English Channel and so when we got to South Hampton the boat was laid up because it had to go down and examine the damage you see. So they put us up into First Class hotels in South Hampton. The kids really enjoyed that. (off mic laughter) Yeah first class there. But only one class on the Masdam. There was a KM-63/ MORRIS 37 few passengers upstairs from us. Yeah the first class was upstairs but there wasn't very many of them, it wasn't a big ship you see.

MOORE:

And how were the accommodations? What where—what type of accommodations did you have? Hold on the tape is out. [TAPE A ENDS] [TAPE B BEGINS] MOORE: Now before the break we were talking about um, you coming to the states and that trip now.

MORRIS:

When we got to the States we got to Hoboken.

MOORE:

No, wait a minute before you got to the States, we have to backtrack because we have to do this in logical order. What were the conditions on the ocean when you came over?

MORRIS:

Oh. It was a small ship and as I said it had an accident before we started so we had a day's delay there. But they said the ship was alright so we went aboard ship. And uh, this—this very rough seas, it was December you see and uh, everybody was sick and I was oh it's all a state of mind and I was already you know. Only Anne—the youngest, and I were alright, all the rest of them were sick you see. And then suddenly I—I had to go downstairs—down the basement of the ship—the hold of the ship to get something and I took so sick and I was, I was as dead as could be it was terrible. So we had a rough trip, so anyway. It took four more days than it should have done and we had to go up around Iceland and that to get across to Halifax. KM-63/ MORRIS 38

MOORE:

Did you say you ran into something would you have realized? The boat that?

MORRIS:

No, it didn't run it—no it ran into a storm.

MOORE:

A storm.

MORRIS:

and we had to skirt the storm you see and they had a band two or three musicians in the ballroom and we were dancing, we were the only couple that was dancing but the band was keeping time with us because (laughs) you'd put your foot out and there was no floor the floor had gone! (laughs) Oh dash. I'm so stupid.

MOORE:

No, no no it happens all the time microphones move like that.

MORRIS:

So, (off mic: you better tie his hands too) I keep trying to put them in my pocket and I—So we had a very uneventful journey except for the sickness. And Anne, Anne made us so mad. She would go—she was never sick, she went down and of course we had been on short rations all these years you see and there was this dining room—dining table full of every kind of food you could think and she would come back and tell us what she had for lunch (laughs) oh yeah.

MOORE:

And so she was— MORRIS: She was happy.

MOORE:

She was happy, and what about , do you remember coming into New York Harbor?

MORRIS:

Yes. We came into New York Harbor and we could see the Statue of Liberty in the mist. KM-63/ MORRIS 39

MOORE:

Did it mean anything to you at all?

MORRIS:

Oh, (not understood) yes. (off mic: you were excited) We were excited to be there because you know, uh quite an interesting experience for an Englishman to go to—to leave his native country and go to a lesser country like America you know? (laughs) That was our attitude, no doubt about it that was our attitude. We were—we were British you see, oh yes. Um, but we got to uh.

MOORE:

So this is a step down culturally for you.

MORRIS:

Well you know (laughs) we soon got over that though. Anyway we got to Hoboken.

MOORE:

No wait, so you got to Ellis Island at one point.

MORRIS:

No, no that's the point I don't remember. As I said over the phone I don't remember Ellis Island, we got to Hoboken. Was Hoboken Ellis Island at Hoboken?

MOORE:

No, but um. Did you have an examination at all.

MORRIS:

No.

MOORE:

Yeah, you don't remember that. And what happened when you got to Hoboken?

MORRIS:

Well we got off the ship. It was on Sunday and there was no way getting from Hoboken to New York except by taxi cab and we didn't have any money. I had some English money and so I thought I'll go to this—we went past a little jewelers store and uh, asked them to exchange some English money for American money. He says yes if you buy something so KM-63/ MORRIS 40 I buy a little trinket of some kind and I got some money. And then when we got the taxi nobody there was just this one taxi and uh, he took all my money to take me from Hoboken to New York. We had to get to Grand Central Station you see to get to Philadelphia. When we got to Philadelphia there was money there that we had sent and there were tickets there for the bus to Salt Lake in the care of this American brother I met one or two or three hours and hadn't seen him again except correspondence. Mm. So in the meantime, this boy had told his mother about us coming you know, and he wanted to meet us but when—when they found out we were Mormons, which he didn't know you see. When he found out we were—he knew we were going to Salt Lake City but he didn't know we were Mormons but, he um, his mother said I don't want to meet them I don't want anything to do with them you see. So he meet us in Philadelphia and took us to dinner and then he took us to the uh planetarium and uh, entertained us and then he took us to a man that he had contacted in the nearest town. He was right—he was the lead—rather the bishop of the state president and uh, he put us up and put us on the bus to Salt Lake City.

MOORE:

You went by bus then to Salt Lake.

MORRIS:

So we went, first of all explain through this very kindly gentleman who didn't know from Madam and was introduced by a Jew who didn't have anything to do with the Church and yet they put us up and they fed us and of course we'd been used to porridge or one cereal that you're looking at KM-63/ MORRIS 41 as your breakfast but now here—here was cheerios and at least twenty packets of cereal, boxes of cereal for the kids to choose from and they— that's such a job choosing what they wanted (laughs) but that was our experience you see. You had been on short rations for so long you see. And aboard ship we didn't get much chance to use it then—then this breakfast anyways that's how we got here. The tickets were there and the money for spending money on the way was there. So we traveled by bus and it took us four days to come over across and it was at Christmas time. Every town we came to was all lit up with lights it was quite an experience for the kids but Ivy was dead because she can't travel on the bus she gets sick, she was sick all the time across them and every time we'd go into one of these side—these little stops where they have a little caf—cafeteria and all, and they would say I'd like some beer! I don't drink beer, they meant root beer and she didn't know the difference. So that was—that was our experience across the country was traumatic. It was very, it was poorly timed. And we landed in Salt Lake City. Now the orderlies were going to meet us at the bus station, they knew exactly what time we were supposed to get there but they had waited for hours and hours and hours you see and so when we landed in the bus station, I don't know if - do you know Salt Lake at all?

MOORE:

No.

MORRIS:

In the center of Salt Lake now is the Crossroads Mall, where the Crossroads Mall now is was—was a street called Richard Street and on KM-63/ MORRIS 42 the corner of Richard street was a big bus stop, beautiful, just like a railway station, great big area you know and there we sit, two little English people, three kids. And finally they came and got us. Now first night we, we stayed at their home they talk about American missionaries always called us a rather crude South station in England but when we got to Salt Lake City the place where they lived all the boys went down the gardens because they had a new toilet and it had just - the bathroom had just been put in. And they were going to have this toilet brought and build it a little bit on the building and have a bathroom there. So before that they just had a toilet on the—we even had to better than them. We had at least running water. (laughs) MOORE: Well when you came to Salt Lake City what address did you come to?

MORRIS:

Euclid Avenue.

MOORE:

Eucid Avenue MORRIS: Euclid Avenue right on this—along the railroad station. And we were in a carrier um camper not in one of these big homes a smaller one then but it was Christmastime you know and it was cold and we had I don't know how twenty blankets on top of us and Sue shivered and the children would come around and that was quiet and experience our first night. And then the next morning the Overlies had met with their bishop who was an interior decorator and he had , this little old in this area of this ward there was this little old building on this lot that the people had lived in—oh no while they built their home, now they were living in their home and they KM-63/ MORRIS 43 were using the little old home as a storage room and so because we had no were to come to they cleared all the stuff out of the storage room and they painted the walls and there was a stove at one end and about thirty feet away was the—just one big room you see and thi—the stove was there and if you stood right near the stove you were cold but if you stood where the heat hit the wall it was really hot. That was my experience with that. This—and the built and cleaned up it and it had a nice bed and linen and then a Christmas tree in the corner full of decorations and toys for the children and there a royal uh—welcome when we got there. And just a very humble house but beautiful.

MOORE:

How did you adjust later to life here? How do you feel about your original decision to come to the United States?

MORRIS:

Oh, of course we've been active in the Church at the time so we really enjoyed it we've enjoyed the stay.

MOORE:

So you think that your decision was a good one to come?

MORRIS:

Oh yes, yeah, but—but we've been back several times you know.

MOORE:

You ever think about going back to live?

MORRIS:

No.

MOORE:

And for what reason wouldn't you go back to live?

MORRIS:

Oh, the conditions are terrible comparatively. Working—for working people it's very poor in England except of course they've all got National Health, their doctors are free and things like that but. KM-63/ MORRIS 44

MOORE:

What about um, what did you work as here? What type of work did you get?

MORRIS:

When I first came my training was a Red Cross and nursing, the Browns knew that I was trained in hospital work and uh, one of the Quroum of the Twelve was on his death bed, it was Elder Albert E. Born of the council of the twelve and he was dying and they had a professional nurse looking after him during the day and some of his employees—uh ex- employees looked after him at night but it was getting too much for them so they wanted someone with training so I went and nursed Elder Born from when we got there at Christmas until he died in June. So that was the first job I had. As a nurse, I worked twelve hours from seven o'clock in the evening till seven o'clock in the morning for all that time looking after this old gentleman who was on his last legs you know. And uh, they were very grateful for that and I was grateful to because in the hours off I—I did carpentry jobs for different people.

MOORE:

And is that the type of work you settled into or did you continue in that line?

MORRIS:

I met an old Scotsman been there for two and a half year, I met an old Scotsman called White and he was a carpenter who'd come from Scotland years ago and he did a lot of uh, alterations for the Church, that office building where cup—where the (don't understand) that is now around the corner of Main Street there was bank building there and all the offices upstairs were let—different people you know and when they changed KM-63/ MORRIS 45 offices this man White would go and remodel it for the wishes for the incoming tenants and I did that for about two years.

MOORE:

Mhmm.

MORRIS:

Did some good work—the man that build the high rise the architect , I did work on his home and he always asked of me to do his work for him.

MOORE:

So now.

MORRIS:

But then in the wintertime there was no use you see there was no work in the wintertime so another friend of mine in the Church had been a missionary asked if I would like to go and work um, alongside another Englishman in Dixon paper house you know. Dixon paper company and they uh, they supply printing they did all the printers and school supplies so all the schools and so I went to work for them.

MOORE:

Where you able to get employment in this country that was comparable to England then?

MORRIS:

No, no my type of work was slating and tiling mostly and, other things on the side you see. My main job was roofer but, they have no roofs like that type in this country so they're all flat tar roofs or wooden shingles and things like that. So it's not the same.

MOORE:

But when you look back now on the— MORRIS: I've done sufficient training in high school in carpentry that I was a good finish carpenter. See so I did some good work around. For instance the Church building stake house which is a large building that holds maybe three or four units of the Church, three or four congregations used the KM-63/ MORRIS 46 same building, they built one in the this one in the Pioneer Stake and the Cannon Stake and I helped lay them out and build those and then we moved into near levity park uh, on the East side of the tracks to uh, Parks Stake and I did the finished work there, hung all the doors and cupboards and things like that.

MOORE:

How do you consider nationality wise now? You—you were first half of your life was spent in England and now the second half of it's been spent here do you consider yourself first American or how do you consider yourself nationality wise, should ask that question.

MORRIS:

We're British Americans! (laughs) MOORE: You consider yourself a hyphenated nationality.

MORRIS:

Yes, yes oh yes. We uh, we like London, like Britain and uh the traditions and everything but we wouldn't like to live there because it'd be too difficult. I'd need more education then I probably could have done better in England but, to be a working man in England is just a working man so.

MOORE:

Well I'd like to thank you on behalf of Ellis Island for giving us a chance to speak with you. And we'll send you a copy.

MORRIS:

Uh-huh.

MOORE:

This is Kate Moore in Salt Lake City, on July 9th, 1994 signing off for the Ellis Island Oral History Project. END OF INTERVIEW KM-63/ MORRIS 47