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BIRTHDATE: JANUARY 29, 1916 INTERVIEW DATE: JULY 18, 1994 AGE AT TIME OF INTERVIEW: 77 RUNNING TIME: 52:08 INTERVIEWER: KATE MOORE RECORDING ENGINEER: TRANSCRIPT PREPARED BY: DONALD KOGER TRANSCRIPT REVIEWED BY:

SCOTLAND AGE: 9

SHIP: PORT: RESIDENCES: CLYDE RIVER BANK SCOTLAND, PITTSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA, USA

Moore This is Kate Moore for the National Park Service. Today is the 18th of July, 1994. And I'm in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania at the home of Lillian Cooper Hopkins who came from Scotland in 1925 when she was nine years old. Why don't we begin by you giving us your full name and date of birth please. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins Lillian Carolyn Cooper Hopkins. Janury 29th, 1916 Moore And where were you born? Hopkins In Glasgow, Scotland. Moore Right. And what was the major industry in Glasgow when you [not understood] Hopkins [Superposed] Ship building. Moore Ship building. And how many people lived in that town at that time, do you know? Hopkins No. Moore Okay. What was your father's name? Hopkins James Fanthrope Cooper. Moore How would you spell Fanthrope? Hopkins F-A-N-T-H-R-O-P-E Moore Alright. And what could you describe your, how your father looked? How would you describe him to someone who had never seen him before? Hopkins About about five - you mean like his measurements? Five foot eight, and brown hair, slender. Moore Eyes? Hopkins Blue eyes. Moore Mhmm What Hopkins [Superposed] Very nice man. Moore His personality and temperament? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins Wonderful and very giving, very giving and gave a lot to charity and things like that. You know. Moore Mhmm. Is there a story about your father that you associate with your childhood, anything? Hopkins I remember him coming home from work and we would, we lived on the third floor of that, this apartment house and we would run down to meet him and he always had chocolate. And then we would get that all of our faces (both laugh). So he was a good father. Moore What was your mother's name? Hopkins Sarah Anne Johnson. Moore And what was her, oh what was your father's occupation, sorry. Hopkins Ship builder. Moore Ship builder, and what was your mother's occupation if any? Hopkins When she was really young she worked in a match box factory filling matchboxes. Moore Mhmm. Hopkins 3 cents a box. Moore Hmm, and what does, how would you describe what your mother looks like? Hopkins She was about five six, dark hair and Moore Eyes? Hopkins Hazel. Moore Hazel eyes. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins Hazel eyes. Moore And how would you describe her personality and temperament? Hopkins She was very thrifty (both laugh). She was, but she was nice, you know and she had a lot of these old wives tales that she would say to you, you know. She was a good mother. Moore [Superposed] like what wives tales? Hopkins Oh, they're all on wheel of fortune now. All those old sayings that she would say. Oh, today's Friday keep your nose tidy. Moore (laughs for an extended period of time) Hopkins [Superposed] Oh I'm trying to think, because she was full of those things and we used to sit, we lived up on the third floor or fourth floor so if we wanted something to eat, we used to yell up to her hey mom and she'd come open the window and look and we'd say throw me down a piece of bread with jelly on a [not understood], that meant [clapping sound] folded over, which she would do and we would catch it and eat it. Moore (laughs) Hopkins She would, she was good. Yeah, she was full of oh isn't that funny if I had known you were coming I would have thought all kind of things that she would you know used to say. Moore [Superposed] Well let's just take you back, you may remember some of them alright. Hopkins [Superposed] Yeah. Moore What about brothers and sisters? Hopkins I have an older sister and she had long dark hair, curls and I remember when we were getting ready to come to America somebody told her they KM-070 / HOPKINS

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wouldn't let us in at Ellis Island if you had long hair, they'd cut it off. And she was worried about that but they let us in. Moore What was, what is her name? Hopkins Her name was Annie Elizabeth Cooper. But she goes by Nancy. Moore Mhmm. And did you have any other br Hopkins I have a brother, James E Cooper. Moore Younger or older? Hopkins Younger. Moore Mhmm. Hopkins And he lives in, well my sister lives in a nursing home in Cabot, Pa. She's 81. A senior, not in a nursing home, in a senior citizens, she has her own apartment. We go to visit her once a month and my brother lives in Mars, P-A. And he lives on a farm. Moore Alright. And you mentioned where you lived, in the apartment house. Could you describe how many rooms did you live in? Hopkins Oh well I think there was three rooms. (ringing noise) Because we had a bedroom and my parents had a bedroom and then there was the kitchen. And I guess there was a bathroom. Moore What was this with you being on the third floor and Hopkins Fourth floor Moore Fourth floor and yelling up to your mother? Where was she? Hopkins She was up here, this window. Moore Uh-huh and where were you? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins Down in the street playing. Moore Oh I see, she'd throw the food down to the street! Hopkins [interposed] Yeah, yeah. (both laugh) Throw down a piece of bread and jelly and shut it. Moore So this is three, what's the address here? Hopkins Three Blarthill street. Moore B-L-A Hopkins W-R-T H-I-L-L Moore Alright Hopkins Glasgow, Scotland Moore [superposed] That's good, let me note the address, and how was your flat heated then? Hopkins I was just telling Jim, just by coal grates. And we had the beds were in the wall, you know. Moore [Superposed] Mhmm. Hopkins Like bunk beds, and it must have been two bed rooms because when we were waiting, we all three of us were born at home. And when we were expecting in those days, I guess I was about 5 or 6 I didn't know anything about where babies came from and they told me well we're gonna get one and every morning I remember running in to see my mother to see if we got the baby yet. Moore (laughs) Hopkins And when one morning I went in and there was my little brother and we was we just thought that was wonderful. I didn't know about all this other, KM-070 / HOPKINS

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how he got there or anything. (both laugh) I think they told us the doctor brought him in the little black bag. (both laugh) That's what my mother told us (laughs). Moore Now how bout plumbing? Did you have Hopkins [superposed] It we as far as I can remember we had a bathroom and I think you had to pull a chain. It was a box and you pulled the chain down to flush the toilet. Moore And how bout what was your water source? Did you have running water? Hopkins Yeah, as far as I remember, yes. Uh-huh. Moore And what kind of furniture did you have? Was it store bought or hand made? Or? Hopkins Probably store bought. And, like I said the beds, we didn't have beds we had bunk beds that were in the wall like. Moore Did you have any animals at home? Hopkins Not in Scotland, I don't remember, no. Because of the apartment, no. Moore Where was this building in relation to downtown Glasgow at that time? Central Glasgow? Hopkins Oh, I'd say maybe ten miles or so. Moore Mhmm, and who did the cooking in the family? Hopkins My mother. Moore And what was your favorite food as a child? Hopkins (ringing sound) She used to make what they called suet pudding with raisins in and we liked that. Then she used to make Christmas pudding with all the fruit and then my dad would hide money, none of us kids liked KM-070 / HOPKINS

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the Christmas pudding, you know it was dark and had all these pieces of citron and that in so my dad used to hide money in there (ringing sound) a farthing or shilling or something so that we would eat it so that we would get that piece of, that money. Moore (both laugh) Now, what about the kitchen? Describe the kitchen how was that? Remember? Hopkins Oh I don't remember much about the kitchen except I did fall going to school. Isn't that funny how your mind work? I fell going to school and some, I was sliding on the ice and it must've knocked me out. And when I came to, I was standing by the kitchen table with my hand on the table and that's all I remember. Moore Hmm. Hopkins That's funny. Moore And what about, did any other grandparents live nearby? Hopkins No, most of them were in London. In you know, they didn't live in Scotland but we used to go visit them, I remember going on the train over to London. Moore What part of London did your grandparents live in? Hopkins East End, London. Moore And were both your parents, grandparents in London? Hopkins Yes. Moore So they went to Scotland, the children or? How did your family end up in Scotland? Hopkins Because my dad, there wasn't any work in London. My dad moved to Scotland to the shipyards, the Clyde Bank. We lived right near the river KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Clyde and then he got and job and he helped to build the ship that brought my mother and my sister and my brother and me to America. The Cameronia. HMS Cameronia. Moore Hmm Hopkins Yeah, that's a good fact. Moore That is. (both laugh). Were you close, especially close to anyone in the family, who was your closest family member to you? Hopkins You mean my immediate family? Oh well I'm very close to both my brother and sister. Very close. Moore Mhmm and do you have any stories about your brother or sister, any favorite stories you tell about them? Hopkins Well my sister and my mother were seasick. So it was, I'm 9 and my brother is 3. We had the run of the ship. We [not understood] our passage was third class. But we went upstairs, you know and then we would run all around. We lost more balls in that Atlantic ocean than anything. Then they come on and they said, when we got close, it took us almost fourteen days to come across. Moore [Superposed] Now let's back up a little bit, do you remember getting ready to go for the boat? Hopkins Yeah, yeah. My mother sold everything. Moore [superposed] No, let me stop, let me go back a little bit. (Hopkins laughs). You're racing ahead here, you got too many good stories here. How did you, now first of all did you go to school in Scotland? Hopkins Yes, I did and I got hit with the strap for being late. You had to hold your hand out if you were late in school. Moore And why were you late? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins I guess being eight, nine, seven eight years old you doddle. And you if you pulled your hand back, you know like if you knew it was gonna come and you pulled it back, you got hit twice and I got hit once. But it would hurt, it really hurt. Moore And how far was the school from home? Hopkins Maybe about five six blocks. I think it was called Clyde bank school. I'm not sure. Moore Clyde Bank school? Hopkins I'm not sure. Moore And what was your favorite subject? Hopkins Oh, I guess well what it is now, spelling. Moore Mhmm and what were the conditions of the school, how many children per classroom were there approximately? Was it crowded or not? Hopkins I don't really remember that. Moore Do you have any friends, play mates or class mates that you remember from school time? Hopkins No but this what the pictures I was looking for had all the kids on our block in that little but I don't remember. Oh I do remember Katie Gout. She lived in the next apartment. You know, on this floor. The Gout family. Yeah, Katie. Moore And now how did you get to school? You said to walked to school? Hopkins [Superposed] Walked, yeah walked. Moore And Did you learn English? [Sarcastically] did you learn English? Of course you learned English. (both laugh). What did you learn about the United States before you came here? What did you know? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins [Superposed] Not much. I don't remember much just that it was a good place and my dad could get a job there. You know, because Moore [Superposed] Did you parents know much about the United States? Hopkins I don't know what they knew, but all my dad friends, he belonged to like a band Constantina Band and some of his fellow band members were leaving one at a time and coming to the United States because things were better. Another little thing I wanna say is we went to the carousel in Akron, Ohio. Bout a week ago Saturday to see Yankee Doddle Dandee and boy did that bring back memories to me, because my Dad has this band and I remember him sending to America for George M Cohan's music for his band to play. I remember hearing all those songs while they were, you know practicing. Mary is a Grand Old Name and all that stuff. And my sister, you wanna know about, (excited) Oh I guess I could keep you here for hours! Moore: Good! Hopkins: My sister on Halloween, I don't think we called it Halloween, we called it some other name but when you went to somebody's house to ask for candy, they didn't just give you candy. You had to perform. You had to do something. And so my mother dressed her up in the kilt, you know we had those kilts and she went in and she sang (singing) her name was mary mary plain as any name can be. Society (stops singing) Oh I can't go (both laughing) That's what she did before she got the candy. But my mother, we wish now that we had those kilts because we both had a set of kilts, you know with the plaid skirts and the hats and we both took lessons in the hornpipe dance, the different dances, the sword dance. We'd try to, she was better because she was three years older than me, but I, we wish now that we both wish that we had the kilts to pass on to our grand children but my mother sold, that's some of the stuff she sold. In order to KM-070 / HOPKINS

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get the money to come to America, she sold piano and everything to come to America. Moore: [superposed] hmm. Now before you left, was your family religious at all? Hopkins: Not real religious. I wouldn't say, of course we used to, we had to say our prayers and we always had to kiss mom and dad goodnight before we went to bed. They insisted and when we got a little bit older, girls, we'd thought we didn't, my dad man he told us you know you forgot to kiss me goodnight. Kiss me, kiss your mom goodnight. So we did that. Moore: What about, what denomination were you? If you were to Hopkins: [superposed] We were presp Episcopalian, In the old country. Moore: And was there an Episcopal church nearby? Hopkins: I don't remember, I don't remember. Moore: Did you say grace before your meals? Hopkins: No. Moore: No. Hopkins: No. Moore: But you said your prayers every night. Hopkins: Yeah. Yeah. Moore: And did you say something special? Hopkins: [superposed] And they always said, we had the whole line. You know, God bless, we'd say the prayer. God bless Nancy, God bless wee Jimmy. We called my brother wee Jimmy, God bless mom and dad, mom and dad; God bless Nancy; God bless wee Jimmy; God bless me. That's the thing, the way we had to say it. Yourself was last, you know. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Now what was your favorite holiday? Hopkins: (laughs) I forgot. Moore: As a child. Hopkins: I guess Christmas. And I remember so well, my dad, when he was over here, he sent gifts over and they came in the evening when my mother was over the neighbors. And I say this so often to Jim, when I was walking from my house to around the corner to where my mother was the snow was glistening. You know, it's like diamonds and I was just so happy because my dad had sent me a present, everybody a present. You know mine was a sewing box. But I say to Jim a lot, now when we're here and we look out and see the snow and I say that reminds me of the (laughing) night I had to walk around the corner to get my mom with the snow was glistening, you know. Moore: Hmm Hopkins: So. Moore: And so now let's get, we're getting now to the point of, you mentioned you played with your playmates. You had the whole block of kids [not understood]. Hopkins: [superposed] Yeah the whole block. Yeah. Moore: What type of games did you play, what type of. Hopkins: We played rounders, yeah and It tag, you know. I guess that's em all. Moore: Any jumping games at all? Hopkins: [superposed] Oh jumprope! Yeah, jumprope. Yeah. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: And you came here after the first world war, do you remember, you were born though. Do you remember anything about the effects of the first world war? Hopkins: Yeah, I remember my mother taking us all down in the shelter. I was just really small and my brother, I don't think he was born yet. But my mother, I remember going underground during the first world war. Moore: And did you know whether or not your family suffered in terms of food and rations and things? Hopkins: No, I don't remember that. Moore: Okay so you said your father came first? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Now what year did your father come over? Hopkins: 1923. Moore: 1923. And do you remember him first bringing up this idea about going to America? Hopkins: No. (ringing sound) I don't remember. Just that you know, that when he was saying, you know his friend Jackie Conway and Willie Nemo (ringing sound) they went to America and I guess he had talked to my mother about it. And he decided he was gonna (ringing sound) come to America. Things were better so Moore: And what, where did he come to? Hopkins: Pittsburg. Moore: And why Pittsburg? Hopkins: That's where his friends came. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Mhmm and what were they doing in Pittsburg? Hopkins: Well I don't know what Jackie Conway did but he did come to see us as soon as we, you know, get moved to Pittsburg. But I don't remember, you know when you're little you don't pay that much attention with these men are doing you know. Moore: What was your father working as when he first came here? Hopkins: He worked in a round house at the railroads. It was hard work that's the only kind work you could get I guess and then he didn't stay there very long. Then he got a job in the Mellon bank. Well they called it (ringing sound) the Union Trust Bank downtown, Pittsburg. And then he just worked there and worked himself up to he was an electrician and he retired from there. And he got a pretty good, what was his pension? I forget. Anyway it wasn't much of a pension but I think I got more money because the salary was small in those days as depression but they paid him more in retirement (Moore laughs), I think it was a hundred dollars or something he got. Because nobody expected him to live to 94. But he came, after my mom died then he came to live with us and he was very contented. He thought he was gonna live forever. But he died at 94. Moore: Well, when you, so he came here first. And then you waited a few years. Hopkins: Two years. Moore: Two years, right. And now you mentioned, tell me about what happened with your mom selling everything. Hopkins: That's, well she sold everything then she went as a job, I think it was like a housekeeper. So she cooked and we, all the kids were there and she cooked for this family. And then when we, when my dad, he kept sending money over for her to you know get, to save for our fare over. Which she did. And then she sold everything that was in the apartment and so we. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: [superposed] What was her attitude about coming to the United States? Hopkins: I think she was just like us I guess. I'm not sure how she really felt, she never said much. I know she was awfully sick, seasick on the boat. Moore: Now when you got, did she take anything with her? What'd you pack to bring here? Hopkins: Well, I gue, I think she had some blankets. She had some knick-knacks. Moore: Like what knick-knacks? Hopkins: [superposed] Well I have one out in the kitchen. It's a little boy and girl, I inherited that. And I can't really mostly clip(tape cuts out for a moment) remember. I think it was mostly clothing and blankets cause she didn't know what she was coming to, you know. Moore: Any family pictures or records? Hopkins: Oh yeah. But my (ringing sound) brother has, we had those big albums but my brother took them. So, I have pictures of my mom and dad and on their wedding, they got married in 1910. But I don't know what I did with them (laughing), look in there Jim, see if you can find them in there (laughing). Moore: Okay so, did you take anything special with you? Hopkins: I think I took, no, I can't remember. I can't remember. My sister had a doll that she was gonna take but somebody told her, they told you all kind of things when you were leaving to come to America about what you could take and what you weren't, what you couldn't take, you know. So we, I guess we just took the bare necessities. Moore: Now did you have a medical examination before you left? Hopkins: Oh I don't know. But we had one at Ellis Island. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Mhmm. Now (ringing sound) before you left, did you see your grandparents at all, did anyone have a goodbye party? Hopkins: No, no no. Maybe the neighbors came goodbye, I don't know (ringing sound). Moore: Did you take any food with you? Hopkins: No. Not that I rememeber. Moore: So tell me what you remember about the trip. Hopkins: Well I remember the cabin, kinda remember the cabin. Moore: Do you remember getting to the boat first? Hopkins: Yeah. Well, no, I don't know whether we got the boat, whether went to London to get the boat, I don't remember that. I remember in Scotland, we used to walk down to the, I guess it was the Clyde Bank River and see the people leaving, so I'm pretty sure that we left from Scotland but my brother, he was only 3 but he thinks he, we came from England because he made a, we had one of those certificates from Ellis Island and he thought, unless he just wanted to say that my dad came from London, England. No, but I think we, I remember sort of, leaving from Scotland because I know we used to go down this place and we'd be waving to the people that were going to America. So then my mom and my sister got sick, real seasick on the boat. Moore: What class accommodations did you have? Hopkins: Third class. Moore: Third class. Hopkins: Uh-huh. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: And did you have your own, explain to me how you slept? How was it arranged? Hopkins: It was like bunks. Four bunks. Four bunks, it was a real small room. Moore: And you, there were the four of you. Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Your mother wasn't escorted by anyone? Hopkins: No. Moore: And so, how, your mother was sick and you, or your sister was sick, and you and your brother were free? Hopkins: Right. We had a good time. Moore: What was the food like on board? Hopkins: Well that's another thing. We got food that we had never eaten before. We never had had corn flakes, we didn't know what they were. Corn flakes, and different things that we got on the ship we had never eaten before. We didn't know what they were. Moore: What else for example? Hopkins: Orange juice. Because in the old country, we got an orange, one orange in our stocking at Christmas. That's the only time we got oranges. At Christmas, in our stocking, one orange. So, we the food was gread, on the ship because of the things that whad never eaten. Moore: And on the boat, were there things you had never seen before? Hopkins: Yeah, well no, just the, I remember this great big dining room. It was big to me, I don't know how really how big it was and then these long tables. My brother and, we went to every meal. (laughs) We had a good time. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Now your mom suffered for how long on that trip? Hopkins: Well I can't remember that, I imagine she had good days and bad days. But, she was real sick, just upset stomach and that, you know. And my sister, too. I don't remember, I think she was in the dining room a couple times but, I can't remember. I know both of them were really sick, they didn't have a good time like my brother and I did. Moore: Now, you were allowed on deck you said. Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: And was there any entertainment for you on the ship? Hopkins: Yeah, there was people playing, concertinas and whatever instrument they brought with them because they were down in the deck below and singing. (tape skips, not understood) And then we played ball and we saw a couple of whales coming across, yeah. Everybody said come on see the whale and you'd go out and see it out there spouting. So I remember, I had my little brother's hand all the time (laughing), that's why we're close today I guess. Moore: And was the, you said that your mother and sister were seasick. Was the voyage rough? Hopkins: Yeah, some of it was rough, yea. Moore: Were there storms or any Hopkins: [superposed] yeah, some of it. I think there was waves, there was really rocky not like the ships are today. Moore: (ringing sound) Do you remember seeing land for the first time? Hopkins: No, except that, when they, I don't remember till the captain said anybody that wants to see Statue of Liberty come up on such and such a deck. Then my brother and I went up. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Did you know what it meant? The Statue of Liberty? Hopkins: (excited) Oh we, oh yes! We were anxious, waiting to see the Statue of Liberty because we knew that it was gonna be a good country and we were gonna go the live. And in fact, when I went on that trip to New York, I was braced myself and I took a nerve pill that I wasn't gonna cry (moved) when I saw the Statue of Liberty. Moore: Mmm, and so what was the reaction on board of the other people. Were they all cheering and? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Yeah. So that means a lot to you then? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Yeah. And do you remember seeing New York too, the skyline? Hopkins: No, just the Statue of Liberty and it was misty, you know but this last time I did see the skyline when we went back this, two years ago. Moore: So you couldn't see the skyline? Hopkins: No. I don't remember the skyline. All I remember seeing is this big statue in the bay or wherever it is, you know. And it was misty, it was early in the morning. But when we went back, this, I saw it really clear. I did break down just two years ago when I did see it (moved). Moore: Actually many people whom we interview have the same reaction, about seeing the statue. Hopkins: Isn't that something. Moore: What about, what happened once you got past the statue what happened then? Hopkins: Then we go, went into the big room. We all had a tag. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Okay, hold on we're gonna take a little break for moment. For this tape. (ringing and clicking sounds). Moore: Alright so, you mentioned that you got to Ellis Island. How did the boat get to Ellis Island? Or how did you get from the boat to Ellis Island, sorry. Hopkins: I don't know if we just walked on the gang plank or whether we had a little boat to take us, I don't remember (ringing sound). All I remember is getting into this real big room with lots of people and they tagged us. We all had a name tag on. And then they would take people up to examine them on the second floor. Moore: How were you treated at Ellis Island? Hopkins: Very very well and they kept us so long then we all got boxed lunches which was good as I remember it was a good lunch. Moore: Did you have a medical examination? Hopkins: Yes, uhuh. Moore: [superposed] And so you waited. Hopkins: They looked in your hair and I remember this one beautiful Irish girl, she had long, she (tape skips not understood). And she was crying and crying and I, we were wondering what was the matter with her and I don't know who, who found out but they come back and told us that she had TB and they were sending her back to Ireland. But she had, I remember that beautiful red long hair. But she, they sent her back. They did send some people back. Moore: Were you, or anyone in your family frightened they would send you back? Hopkins: No. Except that my sister was frightened that they were gonna cut her hair off. Moore: And where do you think that rumor came from? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins: I don't know. And then another thing they told us: when you get to America, you have to call everybody Ma'am, like your schoolteachers. Yes ma'am, no ma'am. Well that kinda scared us because we didn't do that in the old country. Moore: Ellis Island did you have to stay (tape skips) and (not understood). Hopkins: I don't think so, I don't (tape skips, not understood). I think they gave us a lunch and then we had to get on a train to come to Pittsburg. And I remember the train being very dirty and it must've been dark, you know. Moore: Now on Ellis Island, how would you describe the conditions of the great hall that you were in? Hopkins: Well, they had nice, it looked like it was clean, you know. And they had rows and rows of benches for people to sit on. Moore: Was there any entertainment at all? Hopkins: Not that I remember. No, I don't remember that. Moore: And, was the hall relatively crowded or would you say Hopkins: [superposed] Yeah, it was, I thought it was crowded. A lot of people, mhmm. Moore: Were there many other people from Scotland there? Hopkins: Not, no not that I remember. Moore: And how were the people dressed in the hall? Hopkins: Well, some of them looked pretty fancy and other people were just medium. And some were poor, poor people. Moore: What were you (ringing sound) wearing? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins: Oh-ho-o, I know I had a, like a brown woolen coat on with buttons and this, that's where the tag was. Moore: And that's where the tag, so you had a little woolen coat on? Hopkins: Yeah, brown. Moore: And okay, so you basically think you stayed there for one day, about? Hopkins: Yeah, maybe and they fed us, they gave us a boxed lunch because we were there a long time. Moore: Yeah, okay. So then how, did someone come to meet you? Hopkins: In Pittsburg? Not that I remember anybody taking (tape repeats) not that I remember anybody taking us. Somebody must've took us and showed us where the train, the train station was to come to Pittsburg. Moore: What were your first impressions of that (ringing sound) train trip to Pittsburg? Hopkins: I thought it was awfully dirty. It was, the train. But when I got to Pittsburg, we came in the B and O Station and I was the first one to recognize my dad. Hadn't seen him for two years and you have to go through this, you know, these glass doors and then I saw him and I run to him, you know. I was always proud that I was the first one to recognize my father (both laugh). Because my brother, you know was too little and then my sister I don't know, so yeah I was always happy that, because he was a great dad. He lived with us and never caused us, after you know when he was probably up in years, and he was, he worried us a lot with his smoking because he smoked a lot. Thought he'd set this house on fire but. Moore: And so he was there to meet you and then where did you go from there? Hopkins: From there we went to, where he lived. He rented a room on the north side and the lady that rented the room let us come there to stay, but we KM-070 / HOPKINS

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didn't stay there very long and then he found a house to rend (ringing sound) on the east end. Moore: Do you remember the address? Hopkins: Yeah, Lawton Street. I don't remember the number but it was Lawton Street. And then we went up this big hill to school, it was Highland Park School. I have pictures of that, of me in there. And my brother, he was I guess about 4, and the neighbors on Lawton Street were telling my mother, put long stockings because he just wore little short pants and socks and the neighbors told my mother he should have long stockings, long black stockings so she bought long well oh he hated them. Those long black stockings. (laughing) so we went up there to school, in Highland Park School and [lower inflection] I had a boyfriend, a little black boy was my boyfriend because we never saw very many blacks and his name was McKinley Wiggin. Can you imagine me remembering that, McKinley Wiggin and he was nice. He treated me nice (laughing). Moore: And you, went to school. Did anyone make fun of you for being foreign at all? Hopkins: The only thing was that I couldn't write. I could, all I could do was print, and they kinda made fun of that. And I had to learn to write. Everything I had, we learned in the old country was printing. Moore: Were you ever identified as Scottish amongst the other children? Hopkins: Oh yes! Oh made fun of them. And I'd say well if your mother went to China and you were born, you wouldn't be Chinese. They made fun of me because we were Scotch and that was my, I can remember that was my answer to them. I'm not Scotch, if my mother, if your mother went to China and you were born you wouldn't be Chinese. That was my stock answer. When they, they used to like to hear us talk. Especially my sister KM-070 / HOPKINS

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because we rolled our r's. So I wasn't very long until I got rid of that brogue [regional form of English] so they wouldn't know. (laughs). Moore: How bout your mom and dad? Did they lose their accent? Hopkins: No. (laughs) No, they didn't. We have them on tape and it's something to hear both of them cause I had them down for their, we had a big party for their fiftieth wedding anniversary and my dad was very emotional. And we have it on tape. But they never lost their English accent, but we kids, we all lost our brogue [regional form of English]. Moore: How did your parents adapt to live here? Hopkins: Very well, I thought. Very well. Moore: Did they, you didn't say [not understood, tape seems to skip] English Scots. Hopkins: I think American, because he, my dad never wanted to go back to England. Some English people do, you know. But he said no [tape skips and repeats], this is my country. Because we even thought he'd like to go back on a trip to see his relatives; all his brothers and sisters but he said no, he didn't wanna go back to England. So this was his country and he. Moore: [superposed] And how bout your mom? Did she have the same reaction? Hopkins: Yeah, I guess. She didn't, she never said anything. Neither one of them ever expressed a desire to go back (ringing sound). Moore: And tell me a bit about their life in the course of your life. You went to school here? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: And tell me a little bit about your life after that. How you adjusted and what happened. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins: Oh you mean, well we moved my had Dad had planted he loved [tape jumps] on Lawton Street, he had a big yard. He planted all vegetables and we had chickens. But then one time we were gonna have chicken for Christmas so he killed the chicken and then none of us kids would eat it (both laugh) because it was our pet. And then he planted strawberries, oh beautiful strawberries and just when they were getting ripe the landlord, we were just renting, the landlord decided he wanted the house for his sister who was getting married. So we hated the leave all the strawberries, you know. So then we moved to Campanya Avenue, East End. Moore: Moving back to this house on Hopkins: [superposed] Lawton. Moore: Lawton. What kind of, how many rooms was that? Hopkins: Oh, that must have been about, we had a really big kitchen with an old fashioned stove, linoleum on the floor, I remember that, and a back porch, and a nice living room upstairs, was an old one. Moore: [superposed] How about water? Did you have indoor plumbing? Hopkins: Yeah, yeah. Moore: Did you have, what about lighting? Hopkins: Yeah, we had lighting. Moore: Electricity? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: How bout toilet facilities? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Indoor? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins: Yeah. We always had that, since I can remember. Moore: So, you went from there to which street? Hopkins: Campanya Avenue. Moore: [superposed] Campanya. Hopkins: Yeah, still on the east end. Moore: [superposed] Did you rent or did you? Hopkins: We rented. And the same thing happened there that, in fact, the lady that owned was from Hungaria, her and her sister. And my dad used to teach them, the one sister came over, I guess after we moved here my dad used to try to teach her English, from the newspaper. She would say meleek [sp], instead of milk, you know stuff like that. So anyway, she, we left that house, the older sister kept raising the rent, you know and then my dad was working downtown in the Union Trust building so he decided, we save our money, we lived very you know. Moore: Frugally. Hopkins: Yeah, and he bought a house, about four or five blocks up from here. On Dagmar Avenue he bought that house, and that's where we lived, you know until we got married. Moore: So right now you've been living in the same area, basically? Hopkins: Yeah, exactly. Moore: Since what age did you move to that street? Hopkins: Twelve, because I started, I went to the seventh grade in the Beachwood School and graduated in Beachwood School, then went to South Hills High School, graduated from here. Moore: So you've been in this little neighborhood now sixty-some years? KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Hopkins: (excited) Oh yeah, that's right! That's right and then I met Jim, blind date. And he was from Mount Washington and after we did get married, we rented, rented his parents lived in Mount Washington, and we lived in two rooms in Mount Washington until we saved our money and then we bought this house and we've been living here fifty years. Moore: Hmm, so you met your husband on a blind date? Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Now, (Hopkins laughs) was he Scottish too? Hopkins: No. No he was just American, and the cute thing about it was he had another girl and then he met me and because the other girl was out of town, so she come back to town and he called me and says he couldn't come out that night. And he, something was wrong with his car. So he's under there fixing the car and a wrench fell down and hit him on the head. This is what he tells me and then his [not understood] called me and says I lied and then he come out every night then we went together two or three, nineteen to twenty-one. And we got married as soon as we were twenty-one, we got married and we've been very very happy. Moore: Now what did your husband do for a living then? Hopkins: He was a, he worked on the railroad, we first met, we got married in june. June the fifth, he got laid off in august. (both laugh). So then he sorta got/took different jobs, it was during the depression, you know 1937-1938. So he taught driving for a while, and he did a lot of little, he was down in the produce yards, he did a lot of odd jobs until, during the war [not understood] because I was making the gliders, because I was pregnant and I had lost two babies and the doctor said that to keep him around, if he would go off I might lose another one, you know. So he stayed with Heinz and when did you leave there, after the war was over? The Second KM-070 / HOPKINS

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World War. And then you went to the union switching signal. That's in Swissvale and he worked there all the years until he retired. Right? Male Voice: [not understood]. Hopkins: Yeah. Moore: Twenty seven years. And so, did you have children? Hopkins: One child. Joy, because then like I said, we had lost two. (laughing) We wanted a baby so much, and then we changed, I was going to a specialist and we changed doctors, old family doctor. And you better bleep this, because he told us, when was a good time for me to get pregnant, so (laughs) so we, I got pregnant and we were so happy and in the eighth month, I got the mumps. And the doctor said, I can't get you into the hospital because you'll be contagious, he says I really want you to go home and put your feet up. She was supposed to be due on May the first, and put your feet up and take it easy. And so she did wait until, what do you call that when you're not allowed to be, quarantine, until the quarantine was up. But he was telling us, make all these preparations for having a baby at home, newspapers and all this kind of stuff to have the baby at home. And but I stayed there and then I went to the hospital on the eighth of May. That's when she was born, I wanted her to be born on his. Moore: [Superposed] What year? What year? Hopkins: 1944. Moore: Mhmm. Hopkins: And so, when we were thinking about names, you know, then Jim said (doorbell sound in background) let's name her something that really means something, you know. So he come up with the name Joy, and we KM-070 / HOPKINS

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called Joy Elained Hopkins so that she would have the same initials as him (laughing). Moore: Do you think that being, when you think back on your life, do you feel, how do you feel as a nationality now? How do you feel? Hopkins: Oh I feel American, certainly oh this is my happiest time in my life! Moore: [superposed] Do you think that you (laughs). And you think that, is there anything about you that feels Scottish at all, that has survived? Hopkins: Oh no, I'm not tight. I'm not frugal, am I Jim? I give everything away, I give money, I give everything away. I'm not, not like my mother! You know, I share. My mother was from the old school, and same way like we were saying, we were just talking this morning about my mother from the Scottish people, they never seem to want anybody in their house. Like your neighbor to come over in case she thinks you have something better than her. But I'm, my door is always open, I have welcome lights in my window because everybody's welcome to come in. And if I have anything that I can give them to drink, or to eat (both laugh), see my mother, she was very tight. She used to buy, oh I better not say that (both laugh). [not understood] it's not good to speak ill of the dead. She turned out pretty good though, didn't she Jim? After she got Americanized, she was good. She was good but when she was young she was pretty thrifty I'll say. I'll use that word, thrifty (both laugh). Moore: So, when you look back then, you said this is one of the happiest times of your life, do you think the original decision of your parents was a good one? Hopkins: Oh yes, I certainly do. Moore: Have you ever been back? Hopkins: No. No. KM-070 / HOPKINS

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Moore: Have you ever wanted to go back at all? Hopkins: Well, I did think about going back after the second war, while we didn't have the money, but I thought well I'd like to see if that place is still there, where I was born. But we never had that much money that we could go back to, now my son in law, he still hopes for the day that he can go back and find it or just go to England or you know something like that. Now I have a cousin that, my dad's brother's son, who I have never seen, never met but we write to each other every Christmas. His father was really hurt in the Second World War, he was blinded and he, but he, that's the only one I have that I'm in touch with is that cousin. Moore: Well I'd like to thank you on behalf of Ellis Island for helping us and sharing your story with us and [not understood] a copy of this to your family. And this is Kate Moore in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. Signing off on July 18, 1994. END OF INTERVIEW