NASH:

Today is September 5, 1974. I am speaking with Miss Rozia Frankel who came to the United States at the age of ten in the year 1913. Miss Frankel was born in Golitzia, in Austria, Poland. Tell me something about the town where you came from. What was the name of it?

FRANKEL:

Krapivnik. This near the county of Skierniewice, and from there the nearest railroad station was Butaslav which was the city or the political setup for land ownership or whatever, but in Krapivnik we had, it was a farm land, and we lived on the farm. My father was married the second time to my mother, and he was the oldest son of seven children. They were all married, some lived in the adjoining area of farm lands, but the property that my father supervised was a quarry, a stone quarry, and forest lands, and there was some oil on the land which later on, after World War I, was proven to be owned by one of my father's sisters who was married to Mr. Borak, and he was a great financier living in Stryj, and therefore, the rest of the family related to that rich aunt. They have five children. Among them was Dr. Johnnes Borak, Ehania Borak, who was a lawyer in Cracow, and Regina Borak. And one daughter was married and her name was Boran, and she had property on the outskirts of Limburg. In 1909, my father died after the harvest, at which point we were continuing to live on this property, but we had a fire within a few weeks after my father's death. And the family of my brother Noton and Essak, and myself, were dispersed to various members of the family. Tomtavital Borak, she and her other sisters and brothers, wanted to take possession of the property, and under the Austrian law, my mother was married in a synagogue only, therefore they presumed that she was not legally married and under those conditions the children were named Greenberg instead of Frankel, however, my mother had a lot of spirit, and she fought the entire family. And one court decision against their absolute acceptance without (?) or reimbursement to my mother, Mrs. Dora Greenberg Frankel. And with that settlement my step-grandmother and my grandfather accepted my brother Essak to live with them, and the court appointed my grandfather to be my guardian. The court also suggested that my two brothers go into training, service training, so that my brother Essak went into dental training and became a dentist, and a technician, and his money was used for that purpose. Franca Baron, Franca Baron, who had this large estate, accepted my oldest brother, Noton, to learn how to manage the estate, but I went to live with an uncle, a brother of my father, I don't remember, who was a widower. And my mother, under the Hebrew law, thought that she would have to marry the man because any widow is supposed to marry an available single man and this man, this uncle, he was single, he was a widower and he had grown children. And so she expected to marry him, but it didn't happen so, because he had two children still at home and he was a widower a long time, however, I went to live with him.

NASH:

Did you go with your mother?

FRANKEL:

No, alone. And my poor mother, she wandered from one place to another to see her children. She had no home. Eventually, we settled in Stryj, which is just a short two hours from Limburg. And mother had an enterprise, like a candy shop, right on the main highway so she would embarrass the Boraks because they refused to have anything to do with her, and they were the ones that were the wealthiest. When she went into court, she was just Mrs. Frankel, but when the Boraks went into court, (?) Borak, you know, the differentiation was obvious. Then we stayed there for a year and then someone came from the United States to visit, a couple of people that she knew, and they were talking English and mother was very much impressed with it. And she left me with some family in Stryj, and the boys were taken care of through court, and she migrated to the United States in 1910 or '11, I don't remember exactly, and I remained, but by 1913 my grandfather felt that I ought to be with my mother. And he arranged my immigration to the United States, however, I was traveling alone, and from Poland to Hamburg to where I could get the boast, I was alone. That was okay, but when I got to Hamburg to get on the boat, there was no one to go with, second-class passage, there was no one that would take the responsibility of my being there. So the agent didn't want to just send me back to Poland, he tried to arrange for someone to look after me. He found a girl, I don't remember her name, I don't remember who she was, she was traveling steerage. So he refunded some of my money and tied it up in a little bag and gave it to me to guard and then I went with her, instead of second-class passage, to steerage, and we were on the boat for eleven days. And the only thing I could possibly eat was sardines and rye bread, and that was just too much. By the time the eighth or ninth day, I was just so fed up with these sardines that when we were on deck, walking around, I saw on the upper deck the steward running around the boat calling people (?), you know, afternoon tea. And he had chicken soup. So I asked him if I could buy some chicken soup and he chased me off the gangplank, off the steps. He said, I couldn't ride there. At all events, somehow or another I got some chicken soup. But when we got to Ellis Island eventually, I was coming to see supposedly an uncle, but after the hearing at Ellis Island, when no one came to pick me up, it proved that this man was not my uncle because both my father and his sister were dead and this uncle was married to my aunt. So the court felt that I was no relation.

NASH:

Where was you mother? Was she in New York at that time?

FRANKEL:

According to my grandfather's instructions, I was not to say I was coming to my mother, but just to this uncle. It seems that my mother did not expect to be in town. She was trying to earn enough money to return to Poland. And so she went as a housekeeper-cook into the summer area, the Catskills, and she did not know whether she would be back in time. At all events, I did not know anything about that. I followed instructions. I was told that I was coming to see my uncle Rosener, and he did not come to pick me up and, therefore, this girl who was looking after me was also stuck to have to go back to Hamburg. And I was on Ellis Island for five days ready to go back.

NASH:

What were your impressions of Ellis Island?

FRANKEL:

Kind to people, meant well. They were very conscientious about not allowing an unattached child, not related to anyone, not to land. They didn't want any part of that and they were going to send me back after the hearing. The translator misunderstood and he asked me who I was going to see and I said, "My uncle," "And how is he your uncle?" I said, "He was married to my aunt." "Is your aunt living?" "No." "How was she your aunt?" "She was my father's sister." "Well, he has remarried, he is no blood relation, he is no uncle of yours." And then they asked me where my father--since they found out my father was dead, they asked me what about my mother, and my instructions were to say nothing about my mother so I kept quiet. They assumed that my mother was also dead.

NASH:

Why weren't you permitted to talk about your mother?

FRANKEL:

Because my grandfather didn't know whether my mother would be in the city to receive me when I arrived here, so the arrangement was that Mr. Rosener was to pick me up, but he never came. I had a cousin here, his son, Oscar Rosener, he never showed up. So for five days I was ready to go back. And as far as I know, my first impression, that first day when we got off the boat and we were traveling across the river to Ellis Island, the bridges, they all looked like pearls with the lights on. I never forgot that. It was like a string of pearls going around your neck. It was beautiful.

NASH:

Where did you sleep on Ellis Island?

FRANKEL:

That I do not remember. Probably in one of the cots or, you know, one of the public places. Again, of course, I don't know whether the girl that I was with, the people who were expecting her got in touch with somebody because she would have had to go back with me, and then they found my mother and then we had another hearing in this little court and my mother spoke first and then they asked me again why did I say my mother was dead, and I didn't say anything. It was funny. I just didn't say anything. That was my experience in Ellis Island.

NASH:

Was it a happy reunion with your mother?

FRANKEL:

Sort of, yes. She was happy that my hair had grown longer and I had good long braids and she was sort of happy, but I think she had to put up a bond of some kind. Then, of course, the experience later on in Manhattan. I went to live with this uncle and this Mrs. Axelrod, who he had married, and it was the first elevator building on Second Avenue near 4th Street. And everybody was surprised that I wasn't impressed with the height. I wasn't. Nothing impressed me. And then there were some hot weeks and after that there was school. The unfortunate experience in school is the cruelty of the American children. They were very unkind. Of course, you don't know the language so you are put into a class, special class, according to your age, which would be the fifth grade. And as you come out of school, out of the class, the kids call you by name, "Greenhorn," "Greeny," all things like that, but I had a neighbor who had some children, and this girl Rapaport, she sort of took an interest in me and helped me out in many, many ways, and guided me back home from school. I went to PS-41, which is on Third Street between Second and Avenue C, somewhere around there. But I didn't stay there very long because it seemed that this aunt, this Mrs. Axelrod, abused the privilege of having me live with her and the neighbor next door, Mrs. Finkelstein, had children, and they reported to the school that this Mrs. Rosener was abusing me or was unkind to me. I had to do, on Friday I would scrub and clean the seven room apartment, and in those days we had black stoves and she had me shine that so it would be shining like a shoe. You know, black and shiny. And then she was religious ostensibly, so we wouldn't do anything on Saturday, but on Saturday night or Friday before sundown, we would soak laundry, the laundry of the whole family. She also had a roomer or two. So all that household laundry wa soaking so Saturday night we would be doing the laundry. Sunday morning that would be the first thing at 7 o'clock out on the line. And, after all, I was considered a child and so the Finkelsteins reported that to the school, and again my poor mother had to get me out of there.

NASH:

I wanted to ask you. Why did your grandfather send you to the United States when after all you weren't even able to live with your mother?

FRANKEL:

He had used the money that the court had assigned for me, and by this second year I had not enough money to continue going to school or to live with people my mother left me. He had to pay board and he had used the money for himself, so I had no money. And also he felt that by eleven I would be a woman and he didn't want the responsibility. He also-- and she had to take me out and I went to live with some other family for a little while. In the meantime my mother saved every dollar she had and eventually she rented a house on 118th Street, but she was short $25 and she couldn't get the keys, and I wanted to see my mother. She wa sup there on 118th Street, so I took a walk and I walked all the way up to 118th Street from Second Avenue. And there my mother had been fasting for three days. She had no key, she had no money, she couldn't take possession of the apartment until somebody paid the rent. Then she would have the 25 dollars. She had no one to borrow it from. So when I came and she didn't want me to come there, she burst into tears. She locked herself in the closet. She said, "What am I going to do? I can't feed her." Anyway, there was a friend, a Mrs. Wisinger, who had gotten the house for her. She had signed the lease for my mother. And she fed me or fed the two of us, and eventually things went along. Anyway, that was the beginning of my home.

NASH:

How old was your mother at this time?

FRANKEL:

My mother was 38, 37 or 38. When my father died she was 35 or 36, 35 I think or 34, and she came here, about 36, and eventually she met a man or whether she knew him in Poland, I don't know, but she met him and he gave her a hard time, but she married him. Just typical of American romances. You give a man a hard time or he gives you a hard time and then you get married. You think it is funny? Anyhow and anyway, that is the way it is.

NASH:

It must have been very difficult for your mother in America to keep up her Jewish disciple, religious life.

FRANKEL:

Mother was not a religious woman. She pretended to abide by the laws for her current husband's sake because he had been a Talmud teacher, but she considered it just a temporary time and she thought that all religion was a fake, it was nothing to do with living, with human relationship, it was all a pretense. And I don't believe much in any organized religion either.

NASH:

So you and your mother eventually got on your feet, so to speak?

FRANKEL:

Well, eventually. I think I was 13 when I had my first date and I went to this beautiful Alhambra movie house on 125th Street. That was the most gorgeous place in town. And when we came back I was going to make chocolate, hot chocolate, and we started to go downstairs, you know, it was a brownstone that we were living in, so the kitchen was downstairs, so we started down and my step-father and my mother were having an argument and he was telling her, "I didn't marry you to support your children." With that my date and I turned around and he said, "I'll see you some other time." And I went upstairs, packed my two by four things and went over to a neighbor who had a dairy and candy shop and all that and she had two children. She had asked me if I would like to take care od her smaller children after school, so I went over there and she let me go and stay with her. I stayed with her for three or four days before my mother came and took me back. And that whole process of becoming Americanized has many, many unhappy situations because I never wanted to interfere with my mother's life and, therefore, and she was currently married and she was happy with this man and since I heard him argue with her about it, I never wanted to come back home. I would come back occasionally for a couple of weeks, but I would stay with other people that summer.

NASH:

You were thirteen?

FRANKEL:

That summer, instead of continuing school, I got a job with Hernz. My mother got me my certificate, and I worked at Hernz for a while and then I went to Gimbles. At Gimbles I was in the warehouse, in the building. They had a receiving of china and I was pricing the china. The buyer came up, Mr. Rosenthaul, and he saw me, so he sent his secretary out, Miss Turner, and they decided to have me come down to the sales department downstairs, and with that I was with them for about a year. I learned how to do the sales reports and so on, different things in the department. And during that period there was a Mrs. Johnson, who had lived at our house as a nurse for Mrs. Araback, and she had a daughter who was fourteen, Marguerite, and Marguerite Johnson sort of became my sister and I went to live with them most of the time. And I don't know whether mother paid them or whether they just had me live with them. But anyway, I stayed there most of the time. When winter came along, I would come home for a couple of months and then I would go back to Mrs. Johnson, and in that way I learned English very rapidly and learned many, many other things which were a preference for evolution of Americanization. It was evolving into a person, different personality, different culture, and Mrs. Johnson spoke seven languages. She had been a governess.

NASH:

She was not Jewish?

FRANKEL:

No. She was Protestant I guess. Yes, because Marguerite married in the Episcopal Church. I was welcome there. I would sleep in the same bed with Marguerite and I could go there anytime I chose, and then eventually Marguerite got married and things were different. Mrs. Johnson married again and so I was back and forth again at home and I paid my room rent at home. By that time Marguerite had arranged with Stern Brothers to have me work there and while I was there I learned the office equipment. I worked in the billing department. When I asked for an increase, Mr. Travis said, "Well, we will put you on the billing so you will have a trade." And in that way I learned the then Elliot Fisher billing and bookkeeping machines, and with that I became acquainted with the Underwood Company and I was a temporary representative for the Underwood because I then--they used to have their own demonstration and business shows, and one year Mr. Reed, who was then the Eastern Manager of Underwood, took a fancy to me, I must have been an attractive girl. Anyway, he had me in the demonstration show. From then on I was an Underwood representative.

NASH:

At this time I don't get a picture of any of the people in your family. Did you have any other relatives or were you in communication with anybody?

FRANKEL:

No. Cousin Oscar was preoccupied. He was interested in the Cafe Royal on Second Avenue and 11th or 12th Street, I don't remember. That is where all the political people from Russia, the Jews, congregated. Among them was Trotsky and all those other people. He was very much interested with that. He worked for a bank, the Yarmalesky Bank. One of the tragedies that came out of my mother and I being dependent upon the Roseners was that the few dollars that mother had, she naturally deposited in the bank where he was the clerk, and that bank closed up, never to open again. And that was all in prior World War I, so mother had to learn how to be a servant girl instead of having--when we were living in Krapivnik we has seven or eight people working--we had three that I know of worked in the house, but the rest were out in the field and taking care of the animals. When she came here she had no trade, she had nothing, and when the bank closed, she had to earn a living. She had no money. So that was one of the reasons she didn't return home.

NASH:

What was the occupation of her husband, her new husband?

FRANKEL:

Well, he had been a Talmud teacher and--well, from then on I worked temporary, constantly temporary. In the meantime, I lived in a residence for girls, Furgersons on Western Avenue and 82nd Street. There I met Ann Hobdy. Her brother had been killed in the service in the First World War, and with the insurance, they were foster children, both the brother and herself, with the insurance she received from the government, she came to New York and went to Parsons Art School and lived at Furgies, and that was her last year, I believe, so she had to have samples. She was going to open a studio for needlepoint, and that's how I learned needlepoint. She taught me how to make some of her samples. And with that little hobby, eventually, to supplement my earnings, I would do private needlepoint finishing. Anyone started a piece or did something, I would do it. I worked for Alice Maynard's after that for a couple of months to see if I could sell, and Mona Spour, who had her own studio on 68th Street, and I met Resitta Larson. Of all the people in that field, they were prejudice against Jewish employment, as there was prejudice in all banks and all shipping companies, large corporations. If you were Jewish, if I wanted a job I had to lie that I was a Jew. There was a Protestant church on our block where we eventually moved from 118th Street to Mount Morrisburg West and I met the minister, and so I would give him as a reference. For instance, E. F. Hutton was one of the places I went to work for and I had to handle the Barbara Hutton estate money, all her trusts and all her--that was my assignment, on the Underwood Bookkeeping machines, (?). And I was out sick, I think, or something or my mother was out sick and they sent an investigator from the Stock Exchange. At that time the Stock Exchange member houses had their own investigators instead surety bonds. So this investigator came and asked my mother what religion we were practicing and mother said, "We don't practice any." But I had put on the application that I go to the Protestant church. Two weeks later, after I returned, after having been home to take care of the family, somebody was home sick, my mother or my step-father or maybe both, Mr. Hoit fired me. He said, "We can't have anybody out." But the reason was because I was a Jew. They had no Jews. Mostly Catholics. Even in the Jewish brokerage houses, if a Catholic happened to be there, he would call the parochial school for any student from high school that he could train. He wouldn't call the public school, he would call the parochial school, and in that way, they recommend one after another, just as the Negroes and the Puerto Ricans are doing now in the Civil Service. One gets in, that job continues to be Black or Puerto Rican. It cannot revert to general public because they, according to Mrs. Holmes, the Commissioner of Human Rights, they re-recommend each other. That job remains theirs. That's the way it was with the Catholics. Once a Catholic got in, that job or continuing jobs became Catholic. No one could get in. If a Jew got in, it was because he or she were super, extra special. There was, oh I don't remember the, there was girl by the name of--as explained, the prejudice of religion, the Jews kid themselves that it does not exist. It is paramount and the National City Bank, during the Depression, the Underwood Company, Miss Fox, made a special effort to place me because she knew I was living on my own, and so she has arranged with the National City Bank personnel to have me go down there. When I went down there, 55 Wall Street, it only took from the time she had called them for me to get down from 32nd Street and Park Avenue South to Wall Street, which takes ten minutes. When I got down there they asked my name, they went in ostensibly to look something up, and promptly told me that the job was filled. Now Miss Fox would not have sent me to spend my precious nickel, which I did not have, she had to give it to me, and then not place me. My best friends were Mr. Akerly and Mr. Cliff at the Wall Street Placement Office for Member Firms. That is the Personnel Office. They tried and they always had something to offer me where no one would be working, I was working. And Miss Fox, at the Underwood, who was in the placement office. They were always the most gracious people and most considerate of the fact that I needed help, that I needed to work. And with that I had tremendous pride in my ability because these people would not have recommended me if I did not prove ability, through my limited academic background, I was never subjected to that limitation.

NASH:

How far had you gone in school?

FRANKEL:

Sixth grade. I went to--I was very fortunate by going to this model school affiliated with Columbia University, Doctor Maxwell School, and the training there was better than I have seen in some of the public schools since. Well, Miss Bella, she was the English teacher, and she put on plays and she had the children participate in everything, and nothing went by her. She was a little old lady with a hunched over back, but she was the most gracious and able person I knew. Then there was a Miss Langford who was in the --well, what we now Domestic Science, which was then known as the Cooking Class. She was the one that instilled in us a place for everything and everything in its place. She would teach us how to wash our hands so that we would have our moons show. We would scrub our fingernails in such a way that the moon of the fingernail would show. She would show us different things that impressed me because I was always willing to learn, and that was my only way of learning, is what others showed me to do. Also in the sewing class the teacher invited me to assist the American child who didn't know how to sew. I knew how to make a hem, I made my own dresses when I was thirteen, all that. Eventually I sewed sufficiently well that I made my own clothes, but I got that from that class, Domestic Science.

NASH:

So you managed to be employed all throughout the Depression?

FRANKEL:

Yes. Mr. Akerly of the Wall Street Personnel, not the Wall Street Personnel, the Stock Exchange Personnel, he recommended me to the State and the State then appointed me to teach business equipment and I taught at 42nd Street Business and Arts School, they called it at that time.

NASH:

When was this?

FRANKEL:

In 1932. Most of the people who were there at that time, we were earning $15.00 a week, were academically better prepared than I was, but on the office routine, I knew well, but as far as the academic background, to go on and remain in the system I hesitated. Anyway, I became very ill during that first semester and I was in the hospital for about twelve days and it seemed that I had developed TB of the kidneys, so that would have eliminated me from school activity. But I feel the pride that was instilled in me in school to work, whether it was the circumstances that brought me here, that my step-father did not want to support me, I think that that pride kept me going to not to be dependent on anyone, to find resources and work and I have always worked. If I went to school for a couple of sessions, I went to the YWCA, I think they called it the Ballard School at that time, and took bookkeeping and penmanship because my penmanship was sort of a mixture between the German script and the American round, but I was working in Wall Street during that time. You can never count on being finished at five o'clock. You worked until the day's work was finished. You didn't care whether it was 10 o'clock or 3 o;clock in the morning, you simply worked until it was all over, balance and cashed in and all that sort of thing. So often I would register for classes and I couldn't make it. It was just a waste of time. I think I ought to go back to school now, but I don't know how to study. I'd love to know how to study. I don't know how.

NASH:

Did you ever get married?

FRANKEL:

You marry to escape or to create a home. If you have never had a home, you think if you marry you will have one. Usually the man is looking for a crutch and since you are naive and you have no experience, you choose the man that is kind, seemingly kind. The man I chose, who chose me , seemed kind, but he was looking for someone to help him. He was living with his sister. He had been gassed in the First World War and he was on leave from the VA for six months to see how he would get along. During that six months, instead of concentrating on getting well, he decided he wanted to get married and I was the gal that crossed his path, and he thought that my mother would open up the doors and take him in. Now, I struggled all those years not to be dependent on my mother, not to accept anything from my mother. This man comes along and in his mind he felt that we would simply continue living there. This was in 1921. And he didn't tell us that he was gassed or that he was on sick leave or anything like that. He was very romantic and, being lonely and humble at my circumstances, I thought he was wonderful. And we were married in June and in October, during those two months, we had one unfortunate argument and there was a vast gap of culture.

NASH:

Was he Jewish?

FRANKEL:

Yes. He was Lithuanian, but the culture was different. He had been in medical school in Pennsylvania at Penn U, and he enlisted and was in the Medical Corps during the War. When he was mustered out, then he had been wounded, but I had superficial need. My environment from home was different so it was all superficial. He was a very earthy man. He also, in order to work his way through, he was a jewelry polisher, so he told mother he was a jewelry polisher by profession which is, of course, a very good income, and with that he gave me very lovely gifts, signet ring, (?) pearls, you know, valuable things that were hard to come by for the average person in 1921. '22, 1921. So we were both disappointed by October 1st, so then he told me not to be embarrassed and not to embarrass anybody, he is going to go back to the hospital. That was the Hospital 81, the facility 81, is in the Bronx. He went back there and stayed in various hospitals for 13 years. In the meantime he never gave up a nurse who had taken care of him originally, and eventually my mother sued for an annulment of the marriage and that didn't go through, so he sued for a divorce in Pennsylvania.

NASH:

Thirteen years later you were divorced?

FRANKEL:

No, we were divorced sometime in 1933 or '32, I don't know because I didn't see him.

NASH:

After two months of marriage?

FRANKEL:

Three months of marriage. And I felt the whole thing was sort of a nightmare, the whole business of living with nightmare. However, so much for that.

NASH:

Well, just to bring us up to the present a little bit.

FRANKEL:

Well, when I worked for Alice Maynard, I found, as I said, I found in that field prejudice against Jewish employment very rampant. Not with the employer, the employee. They always found a way of making you uncomfortable. The employer participates in nothing. He hires you and leaves you to the conditions. Now the employee is the one that trains you, gives you an opportunity to prove yourself, and she or he reports on you, wherever you are working. It has nothing to do with the employer. It is the employee who is the Hoi Polloi of contact, and if you are not one of them, you simply have no contact. Going back to my residence here in 5 Tudor City, French and Company, which is one of the biggest real estate companies in New York, in no part of this organization in the buildings do you have a Jewish employee or ever had.

NASH:

Right now, today?

FRANKEL:

You never had and you don't have. Originally, they are German, and during the war they passed themselves off as Swiss, and then they have Irish, one recommend the other, and they have Italian. If a Puerto Rican happens to get a job, he is obnoxious, he is unpleasant and he has a very bad personality and so everybody in the building who are majority are Catholic tenants, they complain. So one way or another, the Puerto Rican has to be disposed of, whether he is given another job or another building. Eventually he is disposed of because a Puerto Rican does not know how to be disciplined, I guess, that's the word. He doesn't discipline himself to realize that though he earns a far better income than some of the tenants, and though he may have more material things than the tenants, he does not recognize the difference, that he is a worker and the tenant has a right to complain or needs his services. So even today, as far as I know, in Tudor City, the majority tenants are Catholic. Now and then we have Negroes because when I came here I complained about the prejudice and so now we have Negro tenants, some, not many, and, of course, we have a few Jewish people. By comparison, out of the ten thousand that live here, there is a minority of Jewish people and they pay top rental, even under control. They are top rental, including myself. When I moved in here, this was $110. It was an undesirable apartment, had many turnovers. Every other Catholic had been moved three, four, five times into cheaper quarters, but Mrs. Grabe, who has recently died, she was the renting agent, she gave the Catholic first choice. And when I needed transfer, higher rent, yes, lower rent, no.

NASH:

Tell me something about your needlepoint career.

FRANKEL:

Since I moved over here and Miss Mona Spore, with whom I worked off and on for four years, she moved out to New Jersey. She became ill and moved out to New Jersey. I have been doing temporary work right along with various temporary agencies, and Miss Spore suggested that I put an ad in the paper that I want to do some needlepoint, so I have that little needlepoint ad in the "Shopping Suggestions" of the Times . I would run it for 13 weeks, which gave me a little rebate, but--and I would get customers from that. I also had some clients from the Elder Craftsmen. But I wasn't interested in sitting here and doing the needlepoint, I was interested in training and teaching. I had taken a course with the United Hospital Fund for recreation, and I wanted to use that and I found if I worked I could not attend the library classes to get the library certificate from the United Fund, but I could get the training to go into hospitals to assist in other fields with other people who have completed the course. On one of the places that I went to was the Goldwater Memorial, and that is the most heart-breaking you can go to.

NASH:

(?)

FRANKEL:

On the Island. So I found I cannot, with conscious, go to a hospital and suggest for them to do needlepoint because they don't have the where with all. And it is an expensive hobby. So I reverted to advertising and I have been getting some clients that way plus my temporary work in office temporaries. Not office temporaries, temp positions, and in that way I meet my obligations. And, of course, I am now on Social Security.

NASH:

Well, is there anything you would like to say just to sum up the experience of having come 50 years ago from another country to the United States?

FRANKEL:

My experience is that you come with a total blank of what is going to happen yo you. You have no idea and there is no one to tell you. You simply stumble along and whatever happens, that is you "zivik", as they say in Hebrew. If you had any hardships, a lot of it you have created yourself because you don't know how to cope with customs, backgrounds of people, you don't know how to relate to your associates, you don't know what they expect of you when you go into an office and you don't know how to make friends because they wait for you to come forward and you wait for them to come to you and pick you up and take you along, and it doesn't happen that way. Just doesn't happen that way. Where the difference is, I wouldn't know because I have had no training for that. However my training in the recreation and my training in this needlepoint is a very, very satisfying help to go on. I feel that we all make our own destinies. No one does it for you.

NASH:

Thank you very much.

FRANKEL:

You are welcome.